Suit filed over blocking of religious content

Tuesday, January 3, 2012

ST. LOUIS (AP) — The American Civil Liberties Union filed suit Tuesday against a small Missouri town’s public library, claiming it unconstitutionally blocks access to websites related to Wicca and other minority religions.

The lawsuit was filed Tuesday in St. Louis on behalf of Anaka Hunter, a resident of Salem, a largely Christian community of about 5,000 residents in the Missouri Ozarks. It claims Hunter was trying to do research at the Salem Public Library but filtering software blocked access to many sites about religions such as Wicca, an earth-based religion, derived from pre-Christian religions and magical practices that promote a peaceful and balanced lifestyle. Hunter was also unable to access sites about Native American Religions.

The suit said some religions were labeled “occult” or even “criminal.”

Hunter was doing the research to get more in touch with her Native American roots through spirituality, the ACLU said. Once access was denied, she complained to the library director, who unblocked some, but not all, information. Hunter also complained to the library board, but the board was dismissive of her concerns, the ACLU said.

Federal law requires public libraries to use filtering software that blocks access to sites with explicit, pornographic and adult content. The ACLU suit claims the Salem library went too far, though, in blocking information about religion.

“The library is the last place that should be censoring information about different cultures,” ACLU attorney Anthony Rothert said.

Library director Glenda Wofford said it isn’t the library’s intent to prohibit reasonable use of the Internet for research and other legitimate purposes. She said she would have unblocked websites but Hunter refused to specify which sites she wanted to access, citing privacy rights.

Hunter said in a statement through the ACLU, “It’s unbelievable that I should have to justify why I want to access completely harmless websites on the Internet simply because they discuss a minority viewpoint. It’s wrong and demeaning to deny access to this kind of information.”

The suit said the library’s Netsweeper software blocked sites such as the official webpage of the Wiccan church; the Wikipedia entry for Wicca; Astrology.com; and the Encyclopedia on Death and Dying, which contains discussions on death and death rituals for several cultures and religions.

The suit said the software classified sites related to Native American culture and Wiccan faith in the blocked category “criminal skills.” But Wofford said the software was provided by the University of Missouri and the library had no control over how it labels content.

“The Salem library is a small, rural library,” Wofford said. “We’re unable to provide our own filtering system.”

The lawsuit asks the court to prohibit the library from blocking religious content “based upon its viewpoint.” It also seeks “nominal” but unspecified damages.

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usmc007 1 year, 5 months ago

Wish..The ACLU and any organization like it's self would really figure it ALL out, and FIGHT for something that's worth it instead of these DOG AND PONY SHOW ACTS that I as a VICTIM of All that these organizations are suppose to stand up for and Don't. As a Proud SErvice- Connected disabled veteran Honorably discharged and recepion of Two- not ONe GooD CondUct AWards I proudy tell you and any other oranization like your self .....A LOUD AND VICIOUS MARINE CORPS BOO FOR YOU...

SEmper Fi

UsmC007

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 5 months ago

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees that right to all religions, not just the ones someone or some committee might approve of.

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 5 months ago

It costs the library extra for the software to block all those websites the librarian doesn't like. Speaking of irrational demands, the article doesn't say a thing about him forcing anything on anyone. He's like most other oddballs that just want to be left alone.

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

I must disagree with you on this Grace. In this case, the librarian - and/or those who made the decision to block this - would benefit greatly from an education about nontraditional religions including Wicca.

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 5 months ago

Another irrational comment. Looking things up on a library computer is not an offensive behavior in most peoples' opinions.

bluesfan13 1 year, 5 months ago

What if the library outlawed books that discuss those topics, or decided that The Holocaust was "offensive behavior" that they wanted to protect their patrons from?

And how is this in any way considered "imposing offensive behavior on the public"?

JMO 1 year, 5 months ago

The library is a public institution. Perhaps they shouldn't have copies of The Bible or the Talmud or the Koran. Nothing written by Billy Graham or a dozen other evangelists. Nothing about Jesus or Moses, the Pope or Mohammad. Nothing on the crusades or the rise of Catholicism in the Middle Ages. Nothing on Calvinism or the Puritans. Better yet, nothing on the Spanish Inquisition or the Salem witch hunts - those were pretty perverted and twisted. Let’s take out all access to ALL religions. After all, separate church and state, right? I suspect there would be very little left.

wow 1 year, 5 months ago

I'm confused...in another article this same ACLU is complaing that St Joseph school officials are wong for inviting religous speakers to give motivational talks to the St. Joseph student body. Yet in St Louis the ACLU is upset becasue the local St Louis public library does not provide the St Louis public library user's acess to Wicken/Wicca websites. Ok my question is simple...what are the ACLU members up to? On one hand these folks are saying protect the kids of St Joseph from Christianity....which I think is reeeeeaaaallly freaky. Especially since the same organization is demanding the public library provide the citizens of St Louis access to websites that promote Witchcraft and Demonic/Devil Worship.

It appears as if the ACLU membership is confused a bit. The Judges hearing these cases should listen closely to what's being presented and then kindly and loudly tell the ACLU TGFO!!

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 5 months ago

The issues are impartiality and funding. The United States Constitution prohibits spending public money to promote one religious group over another. That is the simple reason why it is wrong to invite religious speakers to give "motivational talks" to school kids, and also why it is wrong to deny a library patron access to information about his religion of choice.

Sequoia 1 year, 5 months ago

The difference is between promoting a speaker and providing access to information. Kids are free to use school computers to gather information about religion, but schools cannot hire and promote a religious speaker. You have a student's free inquiry on one hand, and school sponsored support on the other. Individual liberty versus institutional promotion. I don't see any confusion.

Sequoia 1 year, 5 months ago

Separation of Church and State was "ripped" from a letter by Thomas Jefferson, one of the all-time great champions of creator-endowed rights and limited government. As I understand it, Jefferson argued that religion is a personal experience between man and God, and therefore mixing politics and religion cheapens the mystery of faith.

Funny how Jefferson thought he was defending religion from the muck of politics, and now Grace has twisted his rather beautiful idea into an accusation that the "wall of separation" is somehow anti-religious. It is sad to see how "movement conservatives" have mixed up the very precious history and faith we should be striving to conserve.

What has harmed this nation AND its faith is the repeated exploitation of "Christianity" to support anti-abortion and anti-gay legislation. Politicians have done this so often that Christian faith is all too often associated with these political positions, rather than its story of victory over death. Jefferson's fears have come to pass.

JCLifer 1 year, 5 months ago

Sequoia said: "What has harmed this nation AND its faith is the repeated exploitation of "Christianity" to support anti-abortion and anti-gay legislation. Politicians have done this so often that Christian faith is all too often associated with these political positions, rather than its story of victory over death... ."

Agree with you there! Also, the Republican party is also so strongly associated with these positions that their excellent positions on small government, freedoms to the people, fiscal responsibility, business strenght and jobs, and strong national defense are lost on many potential voters because instead of talking about this, they keep throwing up loony ideas about gays, and they are so interested in controlling decisions that should be made by a woman and her man regarding reproduction. This is precisely why Obama will be re-elected to another term.

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

wow: the library in question is not a St. Louis library - the library is in a small town called Salem, MO. I believe it is down by Rolla - maybe farther south?

As I see it, the difference between Salem and St Joseph is:

St. Joseph is perceived as a 'governmental agency' - the school - imposing religion - the students exposed to motivation that includes some 'preaching' of Christian information
Salem is perceived as a 'governmental agency' - the library - oppressing religion - the gentleman in the suit would like to read information online about Wiccan - a religion - and the library is saying 'no' - 'criminal' 'occult'.

I really really encourage you to learn more about Wicca. I know people who are Wiccan and they are some of the kindest most gentle peace loving people I know. There are some good books at the local library about this.Your lack of misinformation is showing when you use words like 'Demonic/Devil Worship' in conjunction to this article about Wicca.

wow 1 year, 5 months ago

Ok the library isn't in St Louis...IT IS IN MISSOURI and WICCA is connected to spell casting, toad mixtures, goblins, ghouls and dark magic. WICCA is associated with the darkside and spirits from the darker world. IT"S A DEMONIC. Just because you have WICCA friends that were or are nice to you, does not make them any less Satanic. If I used your rational I'd be agreeing that because the guy coached at a famous college automatically means he's innocent of buggering those little boyz! Now I admit the study of WICCA is not my specialty, but from the information I have read. Much of what happens in this religion leads me to conclude that the religion glorifies Withce's, Warlocks and the likes. That to me equates to demonic worship which equates to not the type of neighbor I want to be around.

Further I don't support the ACLU's argument this time. The school is not imposing anything, they are simply trying to provide a religious Speaker to speak to the student's. This speaker isn't demanding any of the student's do anything and the presentation will most likely be a positive communiccation on respect, kindness and encouragement. I see nothing wrong with that.

On the other hand if a person wants to learn about WICCA, then that person needs to use his/her own resources to do so. If a person wants to enjoy the Sex Industry...they are not going to be able to do this at the public library...it's the same with WICCA. You can dress a pig up, but it still stinks and squeals. You can try callin glorifying witches and such a religion, but it's still Demonic Worship.

It's funny there are those so willing to accept and tolerate WICCA, but not Islam.

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 5 months ago

Wicca, demonology, and Satan worship are all different things. Choosing to equate them in your own mind does not make it true for the rest of the world.

JMO 1 year, 5 months ago

You're reading the wrong books. tonto and Petunia are exactly right. There is no devil worship in Wicca. In fact, most pagan religions don't have anything to do with demons or Satan, as Satan is a biblical character. If they don't believe in God, they don't believe in or worship Satan. Many do believe in some form of magic. But the beliefs tend toward an earth based, "natural" magic. There's no covenant with the devil or evil forces.

I wonder, does the library have a ban on Hinduism, Taoism, Druids, the religions of ancient Greece, Egypt, Rome, or any other of a hundred ancient pagan beliefs? How about the Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism? Or just to the ones existing today they deem "bad".

bluesfan13 1 year, 5 months ago

That's the difference of opinion... Many Christian teachings say that not beleiving in God is the same as worshiping Satan, and therefore all pagans are by definition Satan-worshipers.

JMO 1 year, 5 months ago

Well then, nothing about or written by an athiest should be there, right? Because that's Satan-worship? This is exactly my point. Access to all religions or none. No one has the right to pick and choose what religion I can read if I choose.

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

as i understand it - bluesfan13 is saying some people believe what he/she described in the post. It is not necessarily bluesfan13's believe - merely stating what some believe.

bluesfan13 1 year, 5 months ago

Correct. That is NOT what/how I believe. However, I know many people who believe that any non-Christian is a Satanist.

JCLifer 1 year, 5 months ago

That is because Christian is the religion of the only true God.

JMO 1 year, 5 months ago

To be a Satanist, you would have to believe in Satan. There can't actually be any other definition that makes sense.

JCLifer 1 year, 5 months ago

You are either for God or against God. There is no middle ground.

Sequoia 1 year, 5 months ago

Sure, but the human mind can never know exactly what is "for God" or "against God." That's the human dilemma: we can never know for sure whether what we're doing will turn out for better or for worse. Better to not get carried away, and know when to leave well enough alone.

JCLifer 1 year, 5 months ago

That is why we have "faith"!

Sequoia 1 year, 5 months ago

I don't quite agree. "Faith" is not the same thing as "certainty." You could say that faith, because it demands that humans embrace a mystery they cannot possibly understand, is the opposite of "certianty." I don't think having faith means being certain that you're right. I think having faith demands a humble admission of the limits of my own knowledge.

JMO 1 year, 5 months ago

And this is where I disagree. Obviously. I don't believe in the tooth fairy. That doesn't make me against the tooth fairy. I may believe in God. But people who don't aren't necessarily against God. (Admittedly, some are, but not all.) And they certainly aren't necessarily Satanists. That kind of closed-minded, holier-than-thou, "us against them" attitude is what drives many people to dislike organized religion altogether.

JCLifer 1 year, 5 months ago

You will either go to Heaven or you will go to Hell. Your choice!

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

lol! All this religious stuff has been going on for years - nearing eons - as best as I can figure - its all to make sense of the world we live in... in very general terms.

JMO 1 year, 5 months ago

Then I choose Heaven. Thanks!

JMO 1 year, 5 months ago

No, no! Lifer said I got to choose. Take it up with him! :)

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

wow: given your most recent post, I understand very clearly why wycwing commented in another thread - you lost credibility with him/her. There are many assumptions in your post as well as twisting of what has been said. It becomes almost painful to have any discussion of the information. I forgive myself for doing my best to assist you with the confusion you described in your initial post. What I described is what I perceive to be the ACLU position.

You twist my statement of people I know - to people who are nice to me. M statement is based on many observations. The correlation between this and a coach accused of sexually abusing children is a far fetch. I wouldn't presume to know why you make the connection - it does speak about you - that is certain.

You have described yourself as someone who cares so much about people you will do everything you can to be sure certain things don't happen again. The context was in the thread about the Dixie song played by a band in Springfield.

It must be okay with you that 'witches' were burned on stakes here in the US and the first amendment means nothing to you. You do know that Wicca is a recognized religion in the USA, right?

wow: when you said: 'It's funny there are those so willing to accept and tolerate WICCA, but not Islam' - who are you referring to?

I wish you would ask more questions with the intent to learn about various topics. ....seek to understand.... thes kind of ignorance you display is scary and I seldom say that...boo!

wow 1 year, 5 months ago

I would never stand by and watch a person accused of being a "Witch" be burned alive at the stake. Fact is, anyone that met such a demise was clearly not a Witch, becasue I'm sure if they were, they wouldn't have allowed themselves to be burned alive. So the only way to accept the people who were killed this way is as victims.... I mean they surely are not Jesus Christ, because he rose from the dead.

I know more about WICCA than you may think and yes it is considered by some as a Pagen sect that predates Christianity. Yet Witches, Pentacle and othe icons associated with sorcery, magic and the spirit life are associated with this worship, which is why my original discription isn't that far off and many other's have a similar attitude towards WICCA. I guess it depends on how one rationlizes the many symbols, practices, chants, Witches and such related to this cult like religion.

If you don't agree with me...fine, that's your choice. Just likes it's my choice to say..."if the public library does not want to provide web access to WICCA information...good. Because this religious black art, call it what you want. WICCA is not something I want my tax dollars spent on. If you want to learn about this mess....do it on your own dime. I'd rather my tax money be spent on providing meals to hungry kids"!

We cannot have a minute of silent prayer in schools. Schools can't have religious people speak at school assemblies. The phrase "In God We Trust" can't be publically displayed. The greeting "Merry Christmas" has been substituted with Happy Hoildays. Yet, folks want public libraries to provide WICCA wesite access. Will you and the ACLU also start a push for equal rights for minorities? Will you and the ACLU also complain that more minorities are incarcerated in prison than non minorities? Will you and the ACLU also ask why minorites are more apt to be unemployed, are past over for promotion, are first to be fired and the last to be hired, are denied edcuational opportunties or are unable to take advantage of available educational opprtunities? Will you and the ACLU also ask why those very same people who burned those WICCA Witches...are the very same people who have lynched minorites, made and enforced laws that denied minorites basic human rights in the past. These are the same people who make sure even though minorities may not be burned at the actual stake or face the same obstacles of overt inequality. These same people make sure minorites get burned in life by today's overt tools of inequality and hate.... soooo are ya gonna complain about that or are ya gonna tell me to just get over it? Seems like fixing those wrongs are a lot mored relevant than making sure somebody has access to Harry Potter movies and frog soup! But then again I guess it depends on who butter's your bread, which side of the fence you're on or what's important to ya.

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 5 months ago

She turned me into a newt.

JMO 1 year, 5 months ago

A newt? ;-)

You got better!

JMO 1 year, 5 months ago

wow, your rant about why they shouldn't allow access to wiccan websites on your tax dollar, raises a question. I've said it before and I'll say it again...since it's a govenment funded institution, perhaps they should ban all access to Christian websites too? After all, isn't your complaint that we can't pray in public schools or have them hire Christian speakers based on the assuption that we allow some religions, but not all? If we're going to ban Wicca, shouldn't we also ban Christianity, Judaism and all the other religions too?

Or just the ones you don't like?

JMO 1 year, 5 months ago

I'm fairly sure you know the difference between po rnography and relgion.

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

Graceful: I would like to 'hear' more about '...the first amendment was NEVER meant to be applied to the states.' The fjirst amendment specifies 'Congress shall...' Is this why you say it was never meant to apply to the states?

Sequoia 1 year, 5 months ago

Most states, like Missouri, also have some version of the First Amendment in their own Bills of Rights.

JMO 1 year, 5 months ago

Well heck, how about section 7 of the Missouri Constitution Bill of Rights, that says:

"Section 7. That no money shall ever be taken from the public treasury, directly or indirectly, in aid of any church, sect or denomination of religion, or in aid of any priest, preacher, minister or teacher thereof, as such; and THAT NO PREFERENCE SHALL BE GIVEN TO NOR ANY DISCRIMINATION MADE AGAINST any church, sect or creed of religion, or any form of religious faith or worship."

Sounds to me like a publicly funded entity should not be discriminating against any religion.

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

Very Good. I was wondering about this exact thing! I appreciate you seeking this quote out and presenting it here. and, yes, it does sound 'like a publicly funded entity should not be discriminating against any religion.'

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

so the ACLU filed this under the Missouri Constitution - the section JMO quoted? ....got more questions - must ask one at a time.

Sequoia 1 year, 5 months ago

The story doesn't say, but they probably filed in federal court and alleged violations of both the federal and state constitutions.

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

thanks, Sequoia.

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

please elaborate on this: 'And that is what makes the federal application of the first amendment to the states a problem. It isn't responsive and it is insulated from the will of the people and it is becoming oppressive.'

Sequoia 1 year, 5 months ago

I think Grace means it is because federal judges are appointed, rather than elected, as many state supreme court judges are. Yet many would look at Iowa as an example of how out-of-state advertising money has more influence over judicial elections than "the people."

Interestingly, Missouri originated a unique appointment system where judges are nominated by their peers in the bar, then approved by the governor (I think that's how it works). Several other states have adopted this "Missouri Plan" because it produces good results. In my view the Missouri Supreme Court judges are fairly high quality.

Sequoia 1 year, 5 months ago

Hmmm. Why does the year the Constitution was drafted have anything to do with what the words mean?

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 5 months ago

The drafters and ratifiers would have known about ho mose xuals, and chose not to include anything about that topic in the constitution. The definition and usage of the word hom osex ual have not changed. A person could therefore conclude that hom ose xuals are entitled to civil rights including marriage to a person of their own choosing.

How do you reconcile a ban on gay marriage with the original intent of the drafters?

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 5 months ago

What is not rational is believing that Iowans in 1857 could have gotten all hysterical about the notion that homosexual marriage posed some real danger to anyone else. People were a lot more practical, even tolerant back then. There were farms to tend and livestock to be fed.

Sequoia 1 year, 5 months ago

What if the drafter or ratifiers did not all agree as to what a word means? I mean, in regards to the constitution, there were many layers of drafters and voters who ratified the document. Surely you don't think that all those people agreed? What if the original people disagreed? What is a judge supposed to do then?

Also, if "the people" are supposed to rule, then wouldn't judges want to interpret words based on what they mean to us now? Aren't we, the living citizens, the "people" that you're talking about?

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

valid point!

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

Valid point in that I am surmising you are about 'fairness' when you say this. I wonder if by banning all as described in your post is actually the extreme of what this library did?

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

wow: you are right - we can each think and believe what we choose. What I personally dislike is generality statements that misrepresent....people, ideas, religions, etc... I hear alot of that from you in this.

You asked several questions - apparently b/c you think no is doing a thing. Of course, to answer any of your questions is only a set up for another rant - maybe you will get it out of your system and a real discussion can be had - without the ridiculous accusations or name calling ie 'dixie yappers'? remember that?

wows question: 'Will you and the ACLU also start a push for equal rights for minorities?'

I ask: what equal rights are you referring to here? Would you like the equal rights amendment?

wows question: Will you and the ACLU also complain that more minorities are incarcerated in prison than non minorities?

I ask: are the 'minorities' you are referring to guilty of the crime they were convicted of? It seems a good place to start the discussion.

wows question: Will you and the ACLU also ask why minorites are more apt to be unemployed, are past over for promotion, are first to be fired and the last to be hired, are denied edcuational opportunties or are unable to take advantage of available educational opprtunities?

I ask; What do you identify as the problem?

wows question: Will you and the ACLU also ask why those very same people who burned those WICCA Witches...are the very same people who have lynched minorites, made and enforced laws that denied minorites basic human rights in the past.

I ask: I wasn't aware there was an overlap in specific individuals involved in these acts. Who are they? ...and how old are they anyway?

wows question: soooo are ya gonna complain about that or are ya gonna tell me to just get over it?

I ask: would you like to get over 'it'?

I await your response, wow. I am adding one additional comment at this time: why do you even ask us because it really seems that we know nothing anyway - we are just Dixie Yappers and like our bread buttered and sit on some side of the fence.....seems you really ahve the corner.. we oght to live in the world of wow and all will be well.

wow 1 year, 5 months ago

In my opinion the ACLU is wrong for defending the WICCA website request. WICCA is a religion to some, but to me it is not something that the public tax dollars should be spent on. As for the anti-Dixie comments....I stand by them as well! I don't own a world; however there are some people who have similar likes and dislikes as I have. Just as there are those who do not. The secret is not me owning a world or dividing the world in which we all currently live, instead the bigger issue is how do we "ALL" live in this world peacefully and equally? I don't believe the things I oppose promoted then or promote now that concept of unity. That fact has been proven over centuries and at the cost of far to many innocent lives. Which is why I've been....so directly harsh. If that has offended some....I truly hope those hurt feelings lead to an open discussion of how we really persue and reach a better understanding and respect for equality for all! Perhaps we may move ahead in the process of leaving a better world for our children to leave theirs.

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

wow: it appears you have dodged some questions - questions on topics you raised. Don't want to discuss b/c your feelings are hurt?

wow 1 year, 5 months ago

My last statement was meant to answer your questions in a more civil format...but since that wasn't good enough here we go...and remeber you asked for it. I'm referring to women still not being paid an equal wage for doing the same job men these women are equally as qualified as do. To that I say simply do the right thing! As for the 'minorities convicted of crimes? Not every person convicted of the crime is actaully guilty...which has often been proven. So before convicting a person, let's make sure the court's are not playing "the we gotta convict somebody so it might as well be you" game. Again...simply do the right thing! As for the inequity in gaining/maintaining employment. If you believe there is no problem with in this area...you're either blind, confused or just don't care. Greed is also a big factor is this; however the "ism" factor is certainly present. Again, all I ask is for people to do the right thing! As for identfying the people involved in committing these acts of ism...well it's like. Thyey come in all sizes, shapes, ages, religions, economic classes; however the majority of the abuser's and benefactor's of the "ism" are "white males". As for would I like to get over my distain for these act's of "ism". I don't think anyone can get over being teated badly until the bad treatment is stopped and those doing the bad treatment are properly punished. Again, all I ask is do the right thing! It might not ever happen in my life time, but there are a growing number of people who feel if we stop hinding behind the lies and cowering next to people who promote hate...we just might enjoy what's left of our lives. We just might actually leave a better world for other's to enjoy. Now can you get with that? If not...stand aside, go back to whence you came and let those of us who are not afraid to point out and confront the snakes handle their business. It's simple...all that has ever been asked is that people do the right thing!

JCLifer 1 year, 5 months ago

Oh good grief. None of your grievances are a result of race or sex. They are a result of other factors. For instance, women make less than men (as a group) in the same jobs because they have less experience due to taking time off for maternity leave, taking care of sick children, etc. I know no woman who makes a lower salary than a man in the same job that is because she has different plumbing.

Minorities are convicted of crimes at a higher proportion than whites because they commit crimes at a higher proportion than whites. It has nothing to do with skin color.

If you feel you are so treated badly here because you have a minority skin color, you should probably move to a place where your skin color is the same as the majority. Maybe you would fit in better and feel more comfortable.

You are living in the past, and you cannot get beyond it to join the present where we have civil rights laws, and even a half-black president in the whitehouse. The opportunities are equal. No one but the idividual can help it if the behaviors are not proper to gaining acceptance and success in today;'s society. White people are not all born with a silver spoon in their mouths. They have to work hard and fight for what they have, and they have to mind their behavior, just like successful black people have to do. Get over it, Your living in the past and blaming others has no weight anymore.

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

valid point, JCLifer.

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

wow: wow. I am doing my best to not think you might have 'racist tendencies'.

Lets look at your question: 'Will you and the ACLU also complain that more minorities are incarcerated in prison than non minorities?'

Your response: 'Not every person convicted of the crime is actaully guilty...which has often been proven. So before convicting a person, let's make sure the court's are not playing "the we gotta convict somebody so it might as well be you" game.'

My thoughts: Quite honestly, I don't believe wrongful conviction is what you had in mind when you first asked the question. It bothers you alot that so many 'minorities' are in prison. You are not the only one. There is a book 'The New Jim Crow' that talks about this same thing. What you, the book's author and many others fail to talk about is the fact that many 'minorities' are actually quilty of the crime for which they are convicted. Do you think you are doing them any favors by avoiding this crucial point? Think again!

So, If one accepts the idea that you were really talking about wrongful conviction from the beginning, It sounds racist. Who cares about only a portrion of these wrongly convicted....as in the 'minorities' who have been wrongfully convicted - except one who is 'racist'? If you would like to address the problem of wrongful conviction - doing 'the right thing' would be addressing the problem for EVERYONE who has faced or is facing this dilemma. Given your comments, it really begs the question: who is promoting 'hate'?

When you figure out the world is a far better place to live than you currently believe at this point in time, you will enjoy your life more and may find the 'unity' you desire.

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

wow: this is what I like about you - you care. I am certain your caring goes very deep. For this I am grateful.

soxfan 1 year, 5 months ago

did you ever notice how the aclu never goes after the big companies always after people or small business that can't afford to defend themselves-am i wrong here?

don l

Sequoia 1 year, 5 months ago

You are wrong. No, I never have noticed that the ACLU always goes after people or small businesses. When has the ACLU ever sued a business or an individual? Where did you "notice" this? Did you ever notice that you have no idea what you're talking about?

The ACLU defends the Bill of Rights, which only applies to government entities. The Constitution does not apply to private entities of any sort. A private individual or a business can violate your constitutional rights till the cows come home. For example, if you go into Bank of America and protest, they can have you arrested. You have no "free speech" rights on the bank's private property. However, you have free speech rights on the sidewalk, because it is government property. On the sidewalk, the police (government agents) can't come and arrest you just because someone doesn't like what you say. On private property, the owner is in charge. This is why private schools can preach religion... they are not government entities.

wow 1 year, 5 months ago

News Flash "women make less than men (as a group) in the same jobs because they have less experience due to taking time off for maternity leave, taking care of sick children, etc". Also breakin news "Minorities are convicted of crimes at a higher proportion than whites because they commit crimes at a higher proportion than whites". Also just in our news room "If you feel you are so treated badly here because you have a minority skin color, you should probably move to a place where your skin color is the same as the majority. Maybe you would fit in better and feel more comfortable". Although I've heard the mess about whites committing less crime than non whites. I still find it interesting that people fail to take into account the midigating factors, like economic status, race, gender, political connections, corrupt law officials, ineffective counsel, public pressure all of which greatly influence the legal process. I also appreciate the invitation to uproot my family because there are few Biggots who don't like anti-Biggot's speaking out! Mr. Jethro sir, kindly let the Klan an ole Massa know we'z -a-packin our blonging's right smart and spects ta be a sacdaddlin real soon! Hey, back to reality because there are a lot of people rightly convicted, but there are many cases where clearly the legal system was not properly used.

Now as for the stuff about women paid less because they have less job experience because they have babies and take maternity leave...Now that's a new one for me. Guess that explains everything clearly, so all I can do now is ask God to have mercy on the ignorance that prodcued this foolish attemtp at rationalizing ignorance. I also Gods to please help us all through these troubled times. Amen

No more from me on this....SSYLAW!

wow 1 year, 5 months ago

Petunia...minorites are not just people of color..and ohh yes there are many people of color who are guiltyof committing crimes...but there also a lot them that have become victims to the system simply because of their skin color. There have also been a number of poor innocent whites who have fallen prey to the legal system. Since those numbers combined make up the smallest portion of the population...these vctims are in the minority...hence the term minorities fits them as well. When I used the word minorites it is not a word I resticted to people of color....that restictive conclusion you reached on your own!

I understand the world is not 100% fair, but I will not tolerate being told it's rainng when somebody is actially taking a ^#%%% on my pants leg. It's simple...all I have ever asked is that people do the right thing! I'm not seperating anyone...EVERYONE is included. I thouhgt I made that perfectly clear earlier, but if not here goes....Everyone needs to do the right thing!!! Until that happens....I'm doing what I gotta do and sayin what I gotta say to help get things fixed so that everyone has a chance to enjoy some peace. You can either join me, oppose me or simply get outta my way. It's your choice,

In closing here's something for you to sleep over. One day Malcolm was conversing with Mrs. Corretta Scott King and said Mrs. King, your husband was a great man and I (Malcolm) never had any ill feelings toward him (Martin Luther King), but he (Malcolm) wanted the Haters to understand, they had a choice to listen to and oblige the calming voices of reason ala Martin Luther King and his followers or those Haters could deal with the anger and hostility of peolple (Malcolm and his followers) who were tired of false promises, lies and foolishness. Well it's the same now..I'm neither Malcom nor Martin, but a similar fire for rightiousness burns ever so bright within me and many others and I know be it by listening to the calm voice of reason or falling before the angry confrotationalist. Hate is gonna be done away with and peace is gonna come....I personally will do what I gotta do in order to be able to enjoy when that happens!

Gabrielle 1 year, 5 months ago

LOL! So - square your definition of 'minorities' in this post with the '-isms' you talked about in the previous post. Maybe I'll get in another good laugh before I sleep........you are creative, wow.

You use the word 'hate' alot. What exactly is 'hate'? .... and 'hate speach'? you also call people 'haters'. How do you define a 'hater'? When you talk about it - leave Hitler, slave owners, Al Qaeida and the like out of it - b/c it rally sounds like you think there are alot of 'haters' around.

JCLifer 1 year, 5 months ago

Wow, you are asking for equal results. You seem to think that wealth and status needs to be distributed equally between all subgroups. That is a nice thought, but we do not live in Utopia where everybody automatically gets what they want. Nothing in this world is guaranteed or freely given. Everyone (let me repeat: Everyone) has to work for what they have. The government should not exist to take from the wealthy and give to the poor to make everyone have the same amount of wealth.

What is guaranteed is equal opportunity, not equal results. Everyone should have the opportunity to work for what they want. It doesn't even mean that everyone will have to put out the same amount of work to get there-- they just need to have the opportunity.

Life is not fair, and no where in the constitution or even in the Bible does it say that life will be fair. (In fact, the Bible talks a lot about slaves!)

Your name calling is further eroding your credibility here. You can sit around and say "poor me", or you can work to better yourself. I don't think you are going to find anybody who just gives you half of their wealth or status just because you are crying for it.

Good luck.

JMO 1 year, 5 months ago

People get so off the subject around here. The simple fact is the 1st amendment doesn't even have to apply here. The MISSOURI Constitution says public entities can't discriminate against "any church, sect or creed of religion, or any form of religious faith or worship."

It doesn't matter if they worship Jesus, Allah, Zeus, trees, volcanos, ancestral spirits, buffalo or Beelzebub himself. The library, as a public entity, can't discriminate. Period.

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 5 months ago

From the article - the library guest was trying to access sites with information about Wicca and about Native American religions. According to the article "... some religions were labeled “occult” or even “criminal.” That does not sound like a reasonable accommodation.

Where did you get this odd new tangent? Sites do not get blocked without specific action by library staff. These things are not accidents. The software comes with a standard list of blocked sites which are known to the publisher to offer the illegal kind of po rn, and viruses, and other truly objectionable stuff. The blocked sites are listed in the instructions or on the publishers web page. The library staff had to add the Wicca site and the Native American sites. - they did not add themselves.

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 5 months ago

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, too, when I can. In this story, the library director had gotten some of the sites unblocked but then stated that the library had no control over what was blocked. That contradiction makes it hard for me to give her credit for good intentions.

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 5 months ago

It's simpler than that. Either the library could or could not change what was blocked, and the article already noted that they could. You could assume that some other staff person made the changes if you like, but then the director would be mistaken.

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 5 months ago

You have proposed some rather exotic what-if's in order to support your position. The plaintiff may not have a case at all, but the article explained where the library went wrong. The library might even be able to sell their claim that a good faith effort was made to a gullible enough jury. I would be struck from a jury by the first attorney that asked me where I work and what I do. You'd only get to kick me out if you got to ask me the first question.

TheRickster 1 year, 5 months ago

As far as blocking content, there should be some sites blocked do to a malicious or dangerous subject. I can see that many feel that we all need some blocking to save us from our own independant thinking. Sometimes a few of us visit some sites just to see a different point of view. Not letting it sway our opinion or consept we already have. Being ignorant on a subject might be considered as putting ones head in the sand. Unlike graceful,,I like to be totally informed on the subject before spewing hate and disgust towards what others think that may be different from my our opinions. Blocking us from material that we may learn from will give us a closed mind.Letting fear consume you could make you a scared person. Those will hate and complain about anything different from their own mindset. I do not wish that in our FREE country.

asb 1 year, 5 months ago

It is possible that some of the sites the plaintiff wished for were blocked by WebSense for other reasons, thus making unblocking them diffficult without specific addresses supplied by the plaintiff, which he didn't want to do for privacy reasons. WebSense has administrative procedures in place to very finely select sites and sub-sites, but the library likely doesn't know how to do it. The story doesn't have enough information to make a full judgement. However, these posts allow some judgement, and I'm not above such. Wiccan and Native American religions are no more dangerous than mainstream or occult Christian dogma, and so cannot be legally blocked for that reason alone. Wow is correct re minorites & women; being a minority both predicts and causes negative statistics for groups, because there are cultural and institutional biases against them. The Warren Commission Report from the 60's said it perfectly . . . there is a cycle that takes many generations to break, if at all, linking poverty to every negative minority statistic. Graceful and JCLifer are both wrong on this issue. And, finally, there is no afterlife, get over it.

JCLifer 1 year, 5 months ago

Any biases that exist are from observed behaviors. Talk, dress, and act acceptably, and you will be accepted.

asb 1 year, 5 months ago

Talk dress and act like you and you'll be accepted. That's nonesense!

JCLifer 1 year, 5 months ago

Exactly. Don't forget the Caterpillar boots.

asb 1 year, 5 months ago

Sorry Grace, any individual can achieve the mountain by will alone, but no group can overcome negative circumstances overnight. Most institutional bias is illegal, but much isn't gone. Most cultural bias (not racism just bias) is still well entrenched. For a hermit, all responsibility falls on one person. In a society, the individual, no matter how willful, has to deal with others' actions. An educated individual in a society has the greatest chance, and responsibility, to manage their fate. I cite the proven cycle of poverty-to-poverty, as a political tool indeed. Your denial of proven knowledge is also wielded as a tool of politics. As for the afterlife, you're correct I cannot know there isn't one absolutely. But, I can know so axiomatically because; nobody has ever seen such; there is no reasonable way for it happen; and it really gains us nothing much more valuable than the miracle of our lives in the first place.

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