Jefferson City Council asked to close Cirilla’s

nitrohype 1 year, 11 months ago

This is absolutely ridiculous! It is NOT up to the city or the government to decide what good morals are. If this group is going to ask that the city close down the new store that is doing nothing wrong. Then the same group needs to also ask the city to close Hastings, numerous gas stations, Victoria's Secret, etc... If you don't like it don't go there. This is just another reason why Jefferson City is falling apart and US younger people are and/or already have left. Stop quoting religion as a reason to close stuff or control the city, religion has nothing to do with city management or goverenment.

tonto 1 year, 11 months ago

You are so wrong, but useful in your wrongness. The constitution sets out certain fundamental rights, and one of them is the right to have a government free from religious zealotry. Please, please, keep on with your tirade. Keep reminding people why that first amendment to the constitution is so important. Otherwise they will forget.

John 1 year, 11 months ago

Actually, the constitution as written was to protect ALL citizens from a government imposed religious belief. Because NON-faith is a religious belief it also meant that the government could impose no laws either way, for or against religious belief. In fact, if you read the Federalist papers you will see there is NO mention of "separation of church and state." Instead, the writings of the founding fathers indicate that it was meant ONLY to keep state out of religion, and NOT vice-versa.

jcmom69 1 year, 11 months ago

lets try this again... The First Amendment prohibits the establishment of a state-supported church, requires the separation of church and state, and guarantees freedom of worship, of speech and the press, the rights of peaceable assembly, association and petition.

jcmom69 1 year, 11 months ago

also in the first amendment you might find interesting "Note that "community" standards—not national standards—are applied whether the material appeals to the prurient interest; thus, material may be deemed obscene in one locality but not in another." From the way it appears our community only have a handful of ones deeming our new store obscene.. I also agree with Justice Thurgood Marshall, "If the First Amendment means anything, it means that a State has no business telling a man, sitting in his own house, what books he may read or what films he may watch."

John 1 year, 11 months ago

It is written nowhere in the constitution about "separation of church and state." It simply states that the governemtn will not mandate a religious belief. It does NOT state that people (therefore, LAWS) cannot be the result of a religious belief.

TraceyT 1 year, 11 months ago

Your history is partially correct, but it is out of date by over 100 years. Since the late 1800s, states and lower government levels have been bound by the protections recognized in the "federal law", due to the 14th amendment. Your example of Massachussetts is therefore no longer applicable.

John 1 year, 11 months ago

If you are suggesting that States' Rights triumph over the U.S. Constitution, that battle was fought in 1800s, the South lost. If you want to dig up old understandings then you would be wise to study the idea behind the 3 branches of gov't and that the founders (writers of constitution) believed the legislative branch should be the strongest branch, followed quite a ways back by the executive, and both of those were followed at a great distance by the importance of the judicial. In fact, up until Gen/Pres. Eisehower, Supreme Court decisions were acknowledged and then IGNORED by the legislative and executive branches.

tonto 1 year, 11 months ago

The federalist papers are not part of the constitutioin. They may be used to help understand the wording but in no way can they be used to add or delete anything from what was written.

John 1 year, 11 months ago

IF you had read all that I wrote you would have seen that I said the Federalist Papers was an EXPLANATION of many of things and the thinking behind the constitution. I have not read where anyone wrote it was the constitution.

John 1 year, 11 months ago

And, of course they can be used to add or delete from what was written, it is just that our "activist" supreme court chooses not to do so. Instead, they maintain that the constitution is a living breathing document and, therefore, changes in meaning from one generation to the next so as to be inclusive of changes in culture and desires of the population. That is a very "quick and dirty" explanation of the differences between constructionist views and those of the activists.

local4 1 year, 11 months ago

Amen

HaveAnOpinion 1 year, 11 months ago

These are the same people that kept the riverboat from coming to Jefferson City citing all the bad things that would happen in the community. Well look at Boonville, even with the boat they still have less crimes and drugs then we do here in Jeff. Maybe a few less for people telling us what our Moral values should be would do this town some good. Jan probably owns part of Venus or the Old Um in Columbia.

joytotheworld 1 year, 11 months ago

I agree ! This is a legal business that is making money for the economy. I'm not sure if these do-gooders are aware that JC isn't exactly a booming industrial town anymore , but we need all the jobs we can get . The tattoo parlors have been open a year or more and I have not seen the mayhem we were suppose to see with those . Wonder why ? Oh yea, it was an EXCUSE to keep something THEY didn't want out of out "safe little town" . Guess what ? There is NO trouble at them . I don't like churches, should I picket them? Will they be removed ? I doubt it.

rodinman 1 year, 11 months ago

Perhaps the do-gooders should work to bring a film company to JC. With strong puritanical values and every idea full of immorality and sure to bring mayhem and crime if allowed to blossom they could call the movie "Footloose II."

JMO 1 year, 11 months ago

All I can say is good for the city's legal staff for having an ounce of brain matter. This store does NOT sell p-ornography. Clearly, those opposed have never set foot in what I'm sure they refer to as "that store" (in an outraged whisper). There are certainly more p-ornographic materials sold in book stores and gas stations in this town. Thank God a bunch of holier-than-thou old biddies don't run out city! (No pun intended.)

jcmom69 1 year, 11 months ago

JMO.. would you care to partake in a picketing of the picketers campaign;-)

JMO 1 year, 11 months ago

"I'm against protesting, but I'm not sure how to show it." -Mitch Headberg

An anti-picketing picket? lol!

jcmom69 1 year, 11 months ago

Seems to be a clear attempt to try to save face when their accusations were proven to be unfounded by all the comments by the ones who have actually been in the store. I agree with the above poster.. It is not an opinion that makes someone or something immoral.. as far as I am concerned, they seem to have a misconception that anything pertaining to sex is considered PN.. I have what I consider to be very good morals, my husband and I enjoy experimentation and variety, and appreciate the tasteful shop as opposed to traveling to Columbia to have to enter a real PN store.. Has anyone one of these against this that are calling this immoral actually looked up the definition anyway? For the love of a healthy relationship people, do you really not understand that every store in this city sells something that goes against your views.. I am not a bible thumping Christian by any means, but when I pass by a clearly labeled "Christian" store, I don't even bat an eye lash.. I just choose not to enter, it is not my thing... This way of thinking is kind of immoral when you think about it.. To have the idea that anything other than missionary position is wrong and sinful is immoral! Stay out of the feminine napkin isle and the produce isle in your choice of grocers people, you may be struck by lightning!

JMO 1 year, 11 months ago

So...I don't believe I know anymore if you are against the Cirilla's store now that it's been stated numerous times that it does not sell prnography.

jcmom69 1 year, 11 months ago

I feel we are justified with the "attack" as you claim, seeing how one sign read something along the lines of "holiness is hot, p-rn is not" when this is not a p-orn shop at all. In fairness a negative action is bound to cause a negative reaction. I do find it odd that the word HOT on the sign was the only word in red.. and it is in the same sentence of holiness.. can you explain this?

jcmom69 1 year, 11 months ago

the disagreement started because these women took it upon themselves to speak for the whole community, and not even speak out intelligently given the fact that they assumed this was a p-rn shop without educating themselves first on the contents or for that matter reading the definition of the word. So I guess as someone pointed out earlier, it is ok that they appear to know more about what constitutes p-rn than that of the city who clearly states that Cirilla's does not meet the criteria for such a shop. In other words why do you feel it ok for them to see this as a p-rn shop and picket publicly but it is not ok for those of speaking out on a news article when what we say is actual fact of this not being a p-rn shop? For you and those women to demean the facts of this topic is to say the least arrogant and presumptuous considering to my knowledge not one of you have even entered the shop to have the right to form such an opinion. This city council has its flaws however at least they know the definition between p-orn vs eroticism, sensuality and sexuality.

jcmom69 1 year, 11 months ago

there is no question in who has the "grasp" on the definition of p-rn here.. I can guarantee you it is not the ladies holding the "hey look at me" signs and it might do you some good as well to research the definition.. better yet.. watch 9 1/2 weeks and Debbie does Dallas back to back then come back and share your thoughts on the difference between the two

tonto 1 year, 11 months ago

You may believe you are just speaking the truth but that phrase "depraved prurient interests" is only your opinion and it is hateful by definition since it is so negatively judgemental. A dictionary could be your best friend if you would let it.

jcmom69 1 year, 11 months ago

A debate requires the opposition to answer questions when asked to clarify their side in which you have been avoiding to do in this topic.. If you dare ask what question I am referring to, just go back to the beginning and start over as there were many from different posters that were conveniently ignored. Could this be in part due to you couldn't find an answer that justified your attack on ones morals without incriminating yourself in the process?

tonto 1 year, 11 months ago

Words have rather specific meanings and you seem to have a problem with that concept. When the words don't fit the situation or have specific meanings that differ from your intent it becomes difficult for people to give your ideas adequate consideration.

JCsleeper 1 year, 11 months ago

Sure, just get city government to close any business that doesn't conform to JC standards. That for sure will bring all the young professionals back in droves. Welcome to Geezerville.

dazy1961 1 year, 11 months ago

We all knew that it would be a matter of time before the morality police would descend upon the city council to close Cirilla's. Apparently their opinions (according to them at least) are the only ones that count. The business upsets their delicate sensibilities with all that "sex " stuff--kind of makes you wonder, if they're against that, just how in the world do they reproduce???

Judging from the comments on here, and on the original article, for the most part, Jeff City citizens (and those in the area) are fine with it being here. I hope that the city council will continue to have a backbone and not cave in to the protesters. It's a business, it's bringing people into the city who would otherwise drive clear to Columbia or make purchases over the internet; it's bringing in revenue, and at least it's created jobs for a few people.

Again, to those who are against Cirilla's--DON'T GO IN!!! Your puritanical ideals are not welcome. Let the rest of us decide whether we want to set foot in there or not--that's not YOUR decision!

tarcar 1 year, 11 months ago

The people who are going to shop there will buy the types of items sold there regardless of the store being there or not, either from Columbia, the internet, or elsewhere. Why not let them shop locally and earn a little sales tax from it? All of this commotion is just free advertisement for them anyway. There's probably people that wouldn't even know what kind of store it is except that someone else made a big deal out of it. I agree with others... If you don't like it, don't go in it.

AP 1 year, 11 months ago

Give me a break. Better restrict internet access for everyone in JC to avoid anyone watching "naughty" movies!!! Go back to church and quit telling us what we can and can't purchase with our money.

pannellkim2222 1 year, 11 months ago

My daughter works at this business. My suggestions to you people who seem to not have a problem with the trash they sell in every conv. store in your neighbor hood, is this , the best way to get rid of something is to ignore it and it will go away. Until you brought this tiny shop into the public's eye.s most never even knew about it. Thanks for the free publicity. My daughter is raising two children and going to school. She needs all the breaks she can get. Until all of you picketers she didn't have a lot of business. Now business is good. Sometimes you need to reconsider how you deal with certain situations. If the customers weren't there the business wouldn't be either.

xhepera 1 year, 11 months ago

Pleasantly surprised to see such rational, intelligent comments and not the foaming-at-the-mouth blatherings of the moral hypocrite crowd. There may be hope for this burg yet!

Mr_Grimm 1 year, 11 months ago

The boats would ruin the community...the tattoo shops.....the p-orn shops.....? have you looked around JC recently? I GREW UP here, and now have my kids here and let me tell you it started going DOWNHILL a long time ago! Apparently you have no idea what is going on in your own community. we have just as much violence and drugs in this town as Columbia, you just don't hear about it. you think those 1 or 2 lines in the news paper under Police reports is ALL that's happening? There are calls every night for domestic violence, fights, drugs, drunken driving, shots fired...you name it. and its been that way for a long time. Why not protest the prisons? Alot of them have family members that move to jeff to be close and then when they get out they stay here, isn't that more offensive than a shop? When the strip club was opened you had a whole community up in arms, and that i can understand, but if this was so offensive....dont you think more than 3 people would at the city meeting? look at the comments here, it looks to me like more people are in FAVOR of it. maybe we should go and tell the city council to LEAVE IT ALONE and let it be!

HaveAnOpinion 1 year, 11 months ago

I have noticed that boat has ruined Boonville, just like they said it would Jefferson City. Funny, we need to review the crime and drug numbers from Boonville before and after and then compare them to this find Christian community that we live in. Maybe not all they said would happen came true?????

JCLifer 1 year, 11 months ago

All the lawyers and politicians who live here have done so much more to ruin this town than sex shops, gambling boats, and tatoo shops combined.

Not to mention the Holier-Than-Though Bible-Thumpers who cannot stand for anyone to have any enjoyment in life.

ravenflight 1 year, 11 months ago

Well it seems everyone has a strong opinion here. Well I gotta tell ya as a citizen of jefferson city I don't want a p-orn shop in town.I think it is weird that we have the "freedom of speech" but when a christian exercises that right it is considered intolerent. We also have the so called "freedom of religion" However christianity is banned from schools when every other religion is fully excepted.If you truely are "tolerant" people should you not then be "tolerant" of chrisitans exersising there rights. Were any of you at that council meeting stating how you felt because if you were'nt then you have no right to complain if you aren't going to do anything about it. I hate it when people get mistreated for doing the right thing. The people who are against doing the right thing are just to weak willed to stand up for what they believe so they get angry at the people who go against the grain and do the right thing. Rebbelion isn't going against the grain because everyone is doing it. However there are very few people who do what is right.

jcmom69 1 year, 11 months ago

that is just it.. this is not a P-orn shop.. it is an adult retail store. If you are looking for the P-rn places.. they are in Columbia. No one here is condemning the right to free speech, however when we are called immoral for fighting for our right to shop in Cirilla's, yes I have a problem with that. Couples have been engaging in aids in relationships for years, and now that there is local access to those who enjoy this, we are all considered having bad habits and have tarnished morals. Shame on anyone who judges anyone for their personal interest to keep the fizzle from going out.

asb 1 year, 11 months ago

Raven, freedom of speech doesn't mean liking it. I can crab all I want about your or others' religious views and statements, but still accept your right to have them. And you actually think Christian teachings are banned in school but others aren't? You have a great deal to learn.

ravenflight 1 year, 11 months ago

actually I went to public school they told me I couldn't bring a bible to school also they teach lots of religions but conviently skip over christianity so when I say banned perhaps that was the wrong term shunned might be a better one or looked down upon.

John 1 year, 11 months ago

Actually, I attended public school as well. I was never ever told to not bring a Bible to school and was never told to hide or downplay my Christianity. I understand that some schools do that to avoid lawsuits. . . however, the law AND COURT DECISIONS are clearly on the side of the person who wants to practice their faith, so long as it does NOT impinge the rights of others (that does NOT include their dislike of your practice but it must impinge upon their rights).

JMO 1 year, 11 months ago

The closest I can think of to what Raven describes - is my son was taught in the classroom about Ramadan and Hanukah and Kwanza, but Christmas was never mentioned in his school. Seemed a little odd to me, but then everyone already knows about Christmas.

xhepera 1 year, 11 months ago

Exactly. Everyone already knows about Christmas. Kwanzaa is not a religious holiday, by the way. As for Ramadan and Hannukah, I think that what kids are taught regarding those holidays is more in the nature of cultural education, not religious. Now, if learning about Ramadan or Hannukah involved reading the Quran or the Torah, or learning Islamic or Judaic doctrine and dogma, then we've strayed into teaching religion, which is illegal.

xhepera 1 year, 11 months ago

If you're telling the truth about not being allowed to bring your Bible to school (which I strongly doubt) then your school district engaged in an illegal act. That whole not-being-allowed-to-bring-a-Bible-to-school tale I've seen in dozens of forums and message boards and not ONE school district I've queried afterwards said that they banned students from bringing a Bible to school. Exactly where did this happen?

JMO 1 year, 11 months ago

There is a very big difference between voicing your opinion of some business and activity and trying to shut it down because you don't like it. Would you like atheists picketing a church and asking it to be closed - or would that anger you? Of course it would anger you - it would anger any reasonable person. The problem here isn't Christians. I'M a Christian. The problem isn't Christian's speaking up. The problem truly IS intolerance! You aren't intolerant because you speak up. You're intolerant when you try to cause other's to do without something because you don't like it!

ravenflight 1 year, 11 months ago

I would not get angry at athiests for picketing a church that is their right to do so that is what I am saying. I do not like it that this shop is here would I try tpo get a sex shop with a back room selling p-orn videos removed yes of course I would. My family was personally effected by that stuff. My moms ex was addicted and he did some nasty things because of it. My parents divorced because of it. So if I can stop that from happening to others I will go for it.

JMO 1 year, 11 months ago

This store is not a sex shop and does not have a back room. But be that as it may, while I'm sorry to hear that your family had problems with prnography - you don't see AA members trying to stop new night clubs from opening. They respect other people's rights to choose to drink or not - and of course, not all drinkers are alcoholics and not all people who like to watch p0rn are going to become depraved. (Of course, non and ex-smokers will soon try to ban We B Smokin - (Stupidist name ever for a store by the way.) - and stores like it - that's bound to happen...and as long as smoking is legal - I believe that action will also be wrong.) - but that's another discussion for another day.

xhepera 1 year, 11 months ago

What about taking personal responsibility? We're so quick to blame exterior sources for our woes, as though we are perpetual victims. We're not. And then people turn around and complain about the "nanny-state." No wonder we have nanny-state interference when people, following your philosophy, are so helpless in the face of "temptation." I take responsibility for myself. . .if I were to smoke, overeat, overdrink, or indulge in lewd behavior, that's on ME. Period.

jcmom69 1 year, 11 months ago

I too am sorry about your family inflictions, and wish the best outcome for them how, you cannot seriously blame the ingredients here, it is the individuals choice to engage in acts where it forms a bad habit and or addiction. I am a smoker, but I would never blame the Marlboro makers solely, let alone the entire tobacco industry for my choice to engage in their products or place blame on them if I were to ever develop lung cancer.

HaveAnOpinion 1 year, 11 months ago

So your family is messed up just like everyone elses. I am a recovering alcoholic of over 15 years, my dad is an alcoholic, and it has affected everyones lives we have touched, but because of our issues we are not out trying to "protect" everyone from the evils of alcohol that can use it wisely and it would be unwise of us to try and inflict our beliefs on others because we have a problem!!!!!! It is just that our problem just like p-rn was your moms ex.

xhepera 1 year, 11 months ago

I wish you people would stop telling lies. As far as I'm concerned, it invalidates anything else you have to say when you cannot tell the truth about even the most basic issues. Christianity is banned from schools and every other religion is fully accepted? That's an outright lie. Just like the bit about schools banning Bibles. Freedom of religion is also the freedom to not be clubbed over the head by anyone's particular "brand" of faith. If your allegedly Christian morals make you see this place as evil and degenerate, then by all means steer clear. But you haven't the right to decide for other people, absent illegality, what is or is not moral for them. Start down that road and you're no better than the Taliban. Which is exactly what I refer to our religious right as. . .our American Taliban.

ravenflight 1 year, 11 months ago

look I went to school I was not aloud to bring a bible to school I asked my teacher and she told me not to kay so check your temper bub. Also christianity is never taught in school but I sure learned alot about buddisim,islam,judeaism,hinduism,greek and roman religions,and taoism.

tonto 1 year, 11 months ago

What school? What city? What year? Truth is a powerful thing. Let's have it.

asb 1 year, 11 months ago

The case you mention, which was a nearly unanimous Supreme Court rejection of public school sponsored bible study and reading had nothing to do with Raven bringing a bible to school.

Wakiyela 1 year, 10 months ago

I agree with you, Raven. I noticed no one mentioned the last time an e-rotica shop was in town. Michael Barnard ring any bells? Went from just a "toy" shop into point blank p-rostitution. And FYI, p-ornagraphy leads to pedophilia. Google it. What I always found charming about Jefferson City was the family values, that are still there. You want smut, go to Columbia. It's already a hole. Leave Jefferson City alone. That sort of business would only provoke more problems. How about building a place for the children to go, since they were beating up cops and not allowed to go to the mall anymore? The last thing anyone should be considering there is this sort of thing.

SickNTired 1 year, 11 months ago

Everyone gets a voice. If you don't like the place, don't shop there. If it's not profitable the store will close. I'd personally much rather see the We B Smokin stores shut down than Cirallas. Cigarettes will kill you...having sex will not. Grow up. Sheesh.

NoMoBigBro 1 year, 11 months ago

I guess the Morals police are going to save the city by closing it down one business at a time. A store that promotes a healthy sexual relationship between a man and wife, and perhaps preventing divorce = bad, putting people out of work = good. Really? That's the way it works eh Grace? I'm sure unemployment does not cause crime! The problem I see is that when trying to force your moral views on everyone else, you usually have such a narrowed, tunnel vision, type of view of how everything ties together.

Cirilla's does not look offensive in any way, even on the outside. So I do not know why all these folks are so up in arms about it when they ride by in their horse and buggy. And they must be in horse and buggy, because I'm sure you know where a large portion of the money goes when you buy gas right? Try to be consistent at least.

jcmom69 1 year, 11 months ago

you are kidding here right Grace?? The view is simple here.. There is NOTHING immoral about it.. Basically what you are saying here is man and woman should only have sexual relations in the missionary position, and no foreplay allowed! I enjoy dressing up and role playing with my husband, and he enjoys it as much as I do.. Are we considered immoral in your eyes because our love game items are purchased in adult stores and not hand sewn or if we add some fruit flavor instead of purchasing from the produce department? Would you feel better if people made their own informative videos and shared them thru network sites for children to come across? I'm confused here..I mean if you are not at least understanding to those who this appeals to, then what alternatives do we have but to turn to convents and monasteries?

joytotheworld 1 year, 11 months ago

Maybe YOUR view isn't the only one ! Ever think of THAT ?????

AP 1 year, 11 months ago

No, because their view is the only one that matters. Everyone else is wrong in their eyes.

John 1 year, 11 months ago

The "old" 7-11 at 711 Madison, and later when it moved back into the strip mall behind that address, used to carry similary items (to one extent or another) YEARS ago. Did not hear an uproar then. I think it is pretty distasteful as well, but it isn't as if it is out in the open. Good grief, there are things in nearly every retail establishment to which many of us could object if we were goring to push "our" morality upon the general public; how about bikinis, or speedos, or dresses that are too short or have bodices that are cut too low, or TATTOOS, or private photographs? Should we be able to jail someone who mutters and epithet or makes an "obscene" jesture? How about if a Christian is of a denomination that opposes drinking, should we close all the bars because someone finds them distasteful? How about the Lottery, should all establishments where lottery tickets are sold be closed? Then there are those stupid motorcycles that are always ridden by anti-Christians. . . . c'mon people. I would not shop there either, but I sure wouldn't ban such an establishment. . . .

John 1 year, 11 months ago

should be "an epithet" and "gesture"

wcywing 1 year, 11 months ago

for all you protesters out there, if you didn't say anything, no one would have heard of this place. you gave cirillas free advertising. as for morality, there was brothels and other stuff back in the day. we don't need a nanny state. let the free market decide, if they don't make money, they will close shop.

asb 1 year, 11 months ago

If Cirillas were selling p o r n, and in doing so were objectifing women and reducing the value and beauty of couples' sex lives, I'd join in attacking it as a bad influence, although I'd still defend their right to do business within locally defined rules. But since they're actually selling couples oriented products meant to make couples' sex lives more wonderful, the use of terms like immoral, depraved, pruient, etc. are inaccurate and silly. As stated in the other Cirilla's thread (not edible), the retail sex trade can be grotesque and destructive, but this business is not in that class and the city needs to quickly drop all use of resources examining this issue.

sillyrabbit 1 year, 11 months ago

Let it be known I was conceived through an immaculate conception A2.

JCLifer 1 year, 11 months ago

Better then from a sock.

tonto 1 year, 11 months ago

Two pwoplw? One man and one woman would make two people, but pwoplw?

I am absolutely certain that some posters' mothers and fathers only did it once, in complete darkness, blindfolded, with their eyes closed tightly, because it was necessary.

None of them would admit to enjoying it, would they? As soon as you admit to enjoying it, you're off to the Cirillas' store buying lotions and trinkets and fur-lined handcuffs. The next step is depravity!

jcmom69 1 year, 11 months ago

I confess.. I enjoy it and I enjoy having a retail store to aid in enhancing and adding spice to my marriage.. Call me what you will but Cirilla's does a body good.:D

rock1853 1 year, 11 months ago

Reminds me of the smoking ban situation. If ya don't like cigarette smoke then don't go where it is! How many voted to ban smoking and are now defending this business's right to operate?

wcywing 1 year, 11 months ago

The irony is noted. JC likes to ban things in the name of health, morality, etc.

tonto 1 year, 11 months ago

I am sorry about your mom's ex and what he did to your family but he was a bad person. Allowing him to place the blame elsewhere is a cop-out. It wasn't anything he got from a magazine or in a store that made him bad or made him do nasty things. It was what was inside his head. He was the little kid that enjoyed tearing the legs off spiders and bugs, and things just got worse as he got bigger.

tonto 1 year, 11 months ago

True, but that's not the "ultimate depravity" as described by graceful.

tonto 1 year, 11 months ago

If you are thinking of my feeble efforts towards clarity in written communication, I would not want to read tarot cards nor would I want to have anything to do with the occult. That's against my religion.

Mind-reading on the other hand is amazingly simple. Most people's thoughts are pretty obvious and you can just watch their lips move. You need a lot of patience though.

ravenflight 1 year, 11 months ago

I went to cedar hill lets see that was in third grade so I would say 1997 or 98 I also went to TJ. My teacher said I couldn't pray with others or bring a bible she said I could pray over my own lunch. It scared me to death I thought I was going to get in huge trouble because I brought my bible to school. In middle school at TJ is when they started alot of religion classes so that we could get a better understanding of all religions they also introduced the concept that all religions were right and that it didn't matter which one we chose.That there is no absolute truth. But Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life no one gets to the father except through me. So it was very confusing to my little tween mind.

John 1 year, 11 months ago

If these things happened as you say, it was illegal on the part of the teacher to say or require such things. The U.S. Supreme Court has held in EVERY case brought before it that ANYONE can READ their religious material and pray silently or with others (so long as neither a teacher nor school administrator leads the prayer) when it does not disrupt a class (must do classroom work when in classroom). Therefore, IF these things happened exactly as you say, you probably have grounds for a huge lawsuit. However, since that lawsuit never took place, I tend to believe you have left something out of your recitation of events.

John 1 year, 11 months ago

BTW, I had kids who attended Cedar Hill School during the years you mentioned. Both of them took their Bibles with them, at least, several days per week. They were never confronted with such actions. However, they were required by us (their parents) and their teachers to do assigned work first and when they finished with that they could read their Bibles, study their next Sunday School lessons, and study their catechism. . . .

Jefferson City Council asked to close Cirilla’s

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