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Today's Poll!Who proposes to build a conference center for Jefferson City?
Three developers have different backgrounds, approaches
Sunday, March 10, 2013
Three private developers — from Jefferson City, Hannibal and St. Louis — are vying to operate a conference center and accompanying hotel in Jefferson City.
The two out-of-town companies are hoteliers, while Jefferson City’s Farmer Holding Company has experience in retail development and other operations, but hasn’t owned hotels.
Ehrhardt Hospitality of Hannibal and Farmer Holding, a subsidiary of F&F Development, do not have experience relating to conference or convention centers. Drury Development Corporation did not return phone calls to the News Tribune for this story.
Ehrhardt Hospitality LLC
Ehrhardt Hospitality is a Hannibal-based hotelier that owns two dozen hotels, including Jefferson City’s Candlewood Suite, located off Truman Boulevard near Capital Mall.
Ehrhardt Hospitality proposes a conference center at the West McCarty Street site, near Capitol Plaza Hotel.
The family business is owned and operated by Spike Ehrhardt and three of his sons. Two of those sons, Scott and Stan, are handling the conference center proposal with their father. Trey Propes, the manager at Candlewood Suites, would also be involved in management of the project, Spike Ehrhardt said.
Ehrhardt started the company 25 years ago. He built his first hotel, a Comfort Inn, in 1988 in Macon. Now, among others, they own six in Fort Leonard Wood, five in Tulsa, Okla.; two in Springfield, Ill. and one in Normal, Ill.; one in Chillicothe; and one in St. Joseph.
Their hotel ownership goes across five flags: Marriott, Hilton, Hampton, Choice (Comfort Inn, Mainstays) and Windham (Super 8). Ehrhardt is now building a 25th hotel, a Holiday Inn Express, in St. Joseph.
“It’s been a good go for us, it really has. We try to build one every year or so, so it’s worked out really well for us. We never sold any, and we’ve really never buy any, usually. We’ve built them from the ground up. And we always operate them. That’s different than a lot of companies. They’ll get a management company to operate them.”
The company previously was more into restaurant management. They built 64 Hardees restaurants and have since leased all but two back to the company. They also own three BP convenience stores in northern Missouri.
Some of their hotels have meeting space for 150-200 people, but they’ve never operated a conference center.
“So we’ve been used to it on a smaller scale. This would be a much, much larger scale. But it’s still dealing with people,” he said. “I’m sure we could make it work.”
He said the company has between 500 and 550 employees on the hotel side alone.
“We hope we’re chosen. But if we’re not, we’ve got enough work to do. But it would be exciting to be able to do something like this. I think it would help the city out — bring a lot of people in for conventions, and having the convention center is something that really always helps the city because of the conventions that come in. When they come in the convention center, they not only spend money with us, but I think they spend money at other places in town ... so it helps the town. Being the state capital, it’s kind of a no-brainer. It should really be a very good goal for Jeff City.”
Candlewood Suites bills itself as Jefferson City’s only extended-stay hotel, with meeting room for up to 25 guests. Some of their room rates are around $100 a night.
In 2010, the city came close to striking an agreement with Ehrhardt to operate a conference center and hotel at the West McCarty site. The location is near Capitol Plaza Hotel and where the old state health lab was located.
At the time, some local hoteliers expressed concerns with the conference center plans and the city’s decision to bring in the out-of-town Ehrhardt Hotel group to build an adjacent hotel.
Farmer Holding Company
The family company that started as a concrete plant decades ago has turned into a major player in Jefferson City’s retail development. Now, the family proposes to put a conference center and hotel beside its newly acquired Capital Mall. Elliot Farmer started Farmers Concrete in 1948. He owned that, and then acquired Jefferson Asphalt.
When his son, Mike, graduated from college, he started Capital Sand Company in 1972. Mike Farmer’s brother, Bud, got into the family business about that time and started the gravel plant in Wardsville.
“They started working together and were just kind of owners-operators for a number of years at those two sites,” said Kirk Farmer, Mike Farmer’s son. “They eventually bought their dad out, my granddad, and then have just vertically grown in the construction materials business through ready-mix concrete, asphalt paving and aggregates, concrete products just over the past I guess 40 years now.”
Part of Bud Farmer’s push has been diversifying into the real estate business.
“Over a number of years before I came to work (here), they had some real estate development here and there and had done a few deals. And then over the past, I’d say, eight or nine years, it’s really taken off with our development of the Stoneridge Village shopping center.”
The center includes Kohl’s, Menards, PetSmart, Dick’s Sporting Goods, Buffalo Wild Wings and GameStop.
“That’s really where I’ve cut my teeth learning the real estate development business and managing the other pieces” owned by the company, Kirk Farmer said.
That development was the largest commercial development the Farmers had taken on until recently. In December, it bought Capital Mall from General Growth Properties. The family members have said they hope to make changes to invigorate the mall, but they’ve cautioned that such changes take time.
Their proposal is to put the conference center on their property beside the mall.
The company has other local developments in town, including the building that houses Jimmy John’s subs, but declined to name them all.
Kirk Farmer said the private company intentionally keeps a low profile, preferring to let the co-owners and leasees of their developments promote them.
Both Mike and Kirk Farmer were Jefferson City Jays football standouts who played at the University of Missouri before dabbling in the NFL. Both also served on local hospital boards and Mike Farmer is a past president of the Jefferson City school board.
The company acknowledges it doesn’t have prior experience with conference centers or hotels, but said the plan is to hire people with the expertise to operate the conference center and hotel. It’s the same approach the Farmers taking with Capital Mall, hiring Chicago-based Covington Realty Partners to manage the mall.
“We know what we know, and we know what we don’t know,” said Rob Kingsbury, Mike Farmer’s son-in-law. “Part of our proposal is to actually go out and find the absolute very best, top-ofclass people to operate the conference center and the hotel.”
Kingsbury said Farmer Holding has been happy with the RFP process and looks forward to discussing their proposal with the mayor and council.
“We need to have those discussions with the city and find out what we want,” he said. “What they want, ultimately, is what we’re going to do our best to fulfill.”
Kirk Farmer said a Jefferson City conference center, regardless of who operates it, will be a win-win for the city and his family’s business.
“Our first and foremost goal is for this city to grow,” he said. “And we are just thrilled that the Ehrhardts and Drurys have put in proposals that could potentially lead to the construction and the operation of a conference center. We also put in a proposal because we think we have an excellent site for it. And we’ll let the city and the public decide what’s best for them, and we’ll be happy with anything.”
Drury Development Corporation
Drury’s proposal is to operate a conference center and hotel at a site on the grounds of the old Missouri State Prison site or any other locale that meets the city’s requirements.
Drury Development is based in St. Louis, and is the development arm of Drury Hotels. The company says Drury Development is responsible for the planning, design and construction of all new properties and renovation projects.
Last year, Drury Development was planning to construct a $35.5 million, 210-room Drury Inn & Suites Hotel in Brendwood, according to a St. Louis Post-Dispatch story last September. The story said the Brentwood Drury will join about 130 hotels in Drury’s 20-state chain that completed its first hotel in Sikeston in the early 1970s.
The company already has 23 St. Louis-area hotels under the Drury Plaza, Drury Inn, Drury Inn & Suites or Pear Tree Inn flags.
Marry Me
Comments
RobHunterJohnson 2 months, 1 week ago
I am with the Farmers Group on this one! I cannot find much on Ehrhardt Hospitality LLC? Drurys development seems to be a little vague as well? Why not go with some local talent on this project! We do not need another disaster in a up and coming flood? City management seems to have a short memory? There must be a reason why the Capital Plaza is not alll over this? How much of the Flood Plain property does the city/state own at the McCarty site? Remember if you drop a concrete block into a tub it displaces the water, and where will this concrete block push the water? Not back into the Missouri! Why not build your new building on a Hill? (common sense approach) How about at the Capital Mall location! Highway access, beats out Prison Site traffic being dumped into the Downtown/Laffeyette area to find their way to 50/63! Rememeber all of Sam Cooks traffic lights could be a mess in front of the Motor Bank for West bound traffic! A long time ago those lights should have been OVERPASSES, but the city can't remember a flood? Rob
JCLifer 2 months, 1 week ago
I vote keeping the money local and going with Farmers too. If we have to build the damn thing, keep the local connection.
Ehhardt and Drury don't have any more convention centrer experience than Farmers.
It is quite telling that no developer with convention experience wanted any part of this money-losing fiasco. It it was viable the convention folk would have been all over it, including Capitol Plaza.
When it does go belly-up in a few years, Farmers might be less likely to abandon it than the out of towners.
melbrooks 2 months, 1 week ago
Drury has experience siting and running hotels next to convention/conference centers and partnering with conference center operators. A quick check of their website would confirm this.
In my opinion, all the bidders bring different advantages to the table. It's nice to have a choice of three bidders.
Whichever respondent ends up being chosen, I suspect it's likely they'll hire a firm with prior experience (such as SMG or Aramark) to run the convention/conference center.
RobHunterJohnson 2 months, 1 week ago
Mel, I went to the St Louis site for Drury at Union Station, I have also stayed at that location in the past. I just counted the seating in their meeting room 24 at tables, 100 single seats. They have their hotels near Convention Centers, but that does not qualify them to run one! The most they would have involved is a shuttle to and from? I stand that their site is vague, maybe they can disclose more facts to the Jefferson City public through the NT, or other local outlets! You would think that JC could muster enough local talent to build an operate convention center! My vision is a facilty with the ability to handle large groups, with group accommidations at the site as well as near the location, ample parking with easy access to and from! MCcarty has the easy access part, but parking will be a problem created for the state, Capital Plazas, and their lots sure looks full alot of the times I notice it? The known Flood Plain cannot be ignored prior to the 1993 flood a 10 inch rain inudated the local area flooding that paticular site, as well as the flood itself. My Uncle Lewis Bassman's lower lot flooded in the 1973, 1993 for I saw both of those floods, and I am sure there has been a couple of other occasions as well! If Jefferson City is going to spend the money, then we need to do it right the first time! Farmers site at Capital Mall is on a HILL with several Hotels in the area! Rob
melbrooks 2 months, 1 week ago
Don't forget--I said whomever is chosen will probably partner with someone else to run the convention/conference center side of the business. (For example, the Farmers have hired a Chicago-based company to manage the mall. They are smart enough businessmen to know what they don't know.)
Any of the respondents could get the job done. They are all reputable, family-owned companies. Regardless of which site or partner is chosen, there are several hotels nearby. I'm not worried about the flood plain, because the site can be built up easily--although that does add some cost.
The conference center committee is working on its due diligence. It's wise to wait to advocate for one site or one company over another until more is known.
It's wonderful F & F Development purchased the mall. From what I know of them, the Farmers are excellent businessmen and a solid family. However, I find it ironic that the same folks who always yell about the "good old boys club" and "elites" in this space are endorsing...the Farmers.
RobHunterJohnson 2 months, 1 week ago
I am endorsing spending my money local? Do you think these other 2 groups are going to put any real money back into the community? The field is level through Construction, and operating of the convention center, but the end profit will leave, and go away to build other projects for the other 2 Groups. There is a good ol boy club here! How about the purchase of the new school hill site, or the 2 million dollar shortfall? I want my money spent correctly, with wisdom, and if you think 3 million for that hill was worth it, I have to ask of what club do you belong? As for building something up in the flood plain, guess what, Morning National TV broadcast from that site in1993, and the water at that point was crossing Jeffeson Street where a car could not cross, but a truck could? Now if they complete raising that location where do you think that water will go? I can tell you one thing if is that high it is not going back into the Missouri River, with water that high, and a copius rain where will we be. rob
JCLifer 2 months, 1 week ago
Rob, they have already decided that the West McCarty street or the Prison Yard are the only places it can go. One is a flooded swamp with very inadequet parking. The other is in a crumbling part of town that has nothing but big dreams by greedy people who don't even own the land. Anyone with a lick of common sense can see that there are serious problems for both of these locations. However, anyone with a lick of common sense would not use tax dollars to build yet another hotel and coference center when the current occupancy rate is so low, and the existing facilities are not being used to capacity. Anyone with common sense would see there is little to no reason for anyone to want to come to this town for a conference. We don't have the infrastructure of activities, entertainment, restaurants (try to get supper somewhere after 8 pm on a Monday night). We can never compete with Lake Ozark, Branson, Columbia, Springfield, etc. because we don't have the amenities. How many cabs do we have in this town? Our bus service stops at 5pm and we are talking about getting rid of it. Crazy.
The decision will probably come down to which developer is the most friendly to making donations to the good ol boy's clubs and activities in town. Which developer is going to bring fame and feelings of greatness to the politicians and the Chamber members.
melbrooks 2 months, 1 week ago
Rob, please help me understand why you end a lot of statements with question marks. Are you not sure of what you are stating, or are they actual questions?
If you believe there is a "good old boy" (GOB) club here, name names. There is a constant barrage of such accusations on these forums with no specifics.
I cannot fathom how you connect the city's budget issues to any of these conspiracy theories. The school district's land purchase price was very similar to what St. Mary's paid for their tract--and that is before there was an underpass with access there.
I was here during the 1993 flood. Ask any civil engineer--that area can be filled.
As I said before, on topic: I like all these bidders--they all have something to offer. It's too early to know which one is best, because their proposals haven't been made public yet.
You want to know to which club I belong? It's the Lion's Club.
RobHunterJohnson 2 months, 1 week ago
Spending My Money Local? How about You? Do You think that the 2 other groups will put money back into the community? How about 2 million short fall? What group? The Lions are a very good organization! Imagine a car not able to cross at Jefferson, but some how a truck could! Sounds pretty deep to me! Where do you think the water will go if we fill in the original basin where the creek used to run before they moved the creek under Miller St? The way you are approching this we could put Central Dairy, or Schnucks, or Jefferson Bank under as well! I am a product of POD schools in St Louis Co, They were a failure! Did you know that when Q Hammons was building the Capital Plaza the construction hole fill in with water pulling the large tree in on Mulberry Sreet, and shutting the job down for a period of time? Did you know that I worked for Nentwig Brothers for a couple of years in the 70s, and a couple of times we load the trucks with doors and molding and took them to St Peters Lot? Did you know that even engineers understand water displacement? The good old boys on my list are the couple of banks that fleeced our school board, or the good families who control the gas pricing in Jefferson City to keep us on average a dime higher? I have been in construction all my life, and I am sorry if you do not like my punctuation skills, or my use of the English language, but my questions won't stop! rob
melbrooks 2 months, 1 week ago
The volume of water the fill would displace is minuscule. Again, ask an engineer. Ag levees hold back water to 30 feet around here, for thousands of acres. This is about 2.5 acres, probably displacing a less than 5 feet of water on average. I haven't shot the site with a transit, but I would wager you could easily call the consulting architect and ask for the facts.
Since the prices per acres both St. Mary's and the school district paid were very comparable, how did anyone get fleeced?
No names. Color me surprised. We have bankers in my Lions Club. Does that make my Lions Club a good old boys club?
What's funny about this whole conversation is I think the MSP is probably the best site--yet here I am, defending the McCarty site as an option.
How about this: why not actually attend the public meetings which will be held regarding the conference center options, and thereby make an informed decision?
connor 2 months, 1 week ago
You Can't?!! USE! FActs! AgaIsT mE!!!!
RobHunterJohnson 2 months, 1 week ago
Mel, google earth: from the drain to roadway of 50/63 is 11' Difference, and Wagering should be done on a boat? We also missed that great opportunity! Funny I think that MCcarty is a poor site , should not even be in the equation! I sand bagged at Mulberry, and Elm. 1800 sand bags from station one to Mulberry. Funny I took a jon boat, from That location to my Uncles home at the MCcarty site, with the only obsticle was crossing a fence when the prop hit it! I Imagine that you rich boys will build your stuff anyplace you like, and the tax payers are the one who will hold the bag at the end! DO IT RIGHT! If you have not notice the crest of the last great flood is always lower when we get the next great flood! Historic floods,1993, 1951, 1903, 1995.1947,1986,1944,1973, 2001, 1909, In this day and age why build anything in a flood plain? Answer because the City owns the ground?????????? Rob
melbrooks 2 months, 1 week ago
Answer: because it's close to the Capitol building. And yes, the city housing authority controlling a portion of the properties does play a role, because it makes the site less expensive to acquire.
One more time: Call the consulting architect and ask. My point stands--the whole site would displace much less than a similar amount of farmland behind a levee.
And please--I am far from rich in monetary terms. Haven't we had enough of class warfare? It serves no good purpose.
JCLifer 2 months, 1 week ago
Although there are several good ol' boys clubs, and several divisions within the club, you will find most all the members listed on this website:
tinyurl.com/baeb6b8
This town needs some serious change if it is ever going to do any better. If we continue to accept these things, we will continue to get the same poor results:
JCLifer 2 months, 1 week ago
I would support this project if it were at least twice as big as what is being proposed, and if it were built and operated as a combination Conference and Community Center.
This project should benefit most all citizens, and not just a few people or outsiders. This is public tax dollars! Where is the public good?
melbrooks 2 months, 1 week ago
Ah, yes. All those evil business organizations, conspiring to take from others. If it weren't so tragic, it would be comical.
Members of these organizations the achievers. Here, they are under constant attack by posters who claim to be the champions of the private sector, the business community. Yet, our own business community is the "good old boys". Amazing.
Small business owners want the community to grow. If our area doesn't grow, their companies are not likely to grow. It's really that simple.
The charge is constantly made here that only a few or some "outsiders" (gee, who's cliquish now?) will benefit from a conference center. Who are these people? How will only they benefit?
These baseless assertions distract the community from making good decisions.
RobHunterJohnson 2 months, 1 week ago
I like progress, but I want my money spent with wisdom, not scratch my back! They will put their money (proifit) back into Drury Inns, and Hospitality hotels across the country. Farmers own the concrete plant, now the mall, and who knows what else, but his money is being spent right here in GOOD OL Jefferson City, not in Dayton Ohio! Rob
melbrooks 2 months, 1 week ago
As I said before, I think it's wonderful F & F purchased the Mall, and I'm grateful the Farmers see good investments in our community--and see the conference center as a good investment.
However, it's naive to think F & F does not spend dollars outside our area. After all, they are spending money outside the area with a Chicago-based firm to manage the mall.
Just who is scratching whose back? If you're willing to make the charge, you ought to be ready to say who is doing so.
Inevitably somebody will try to say it's the Farmer's whose "backs are being scratched" because they are local, and they have local investments. I don't believe that for a second, but that won't stop folks who comment here from implying such.
RobHunterJohnson 2 months, 1 week ago
End profit! Farmers is not building something on lake Shre Blvd! Whos scratching someones back with a Drury endorsement? I do not know the Farmers from the Man in the Moon, but I can tell you one thing the farmers group is reinvesting in Jefferson City, something the other 2 will not do! Even after the management firms are paid these people are spending their hard earned dollars right here in Jefferson City, Missouri! Mel your organization is a good one, use you influence to talk to your Banker Friends! Rob
centerguy56 2 months, 1 week ago
mel:
can you run for public office??.....you are the only one of these posters who are thoughtful.....it makes me weak how stupid these posters are from the left or right field bleachers.......they can just makeup stuff and they feel good about it...........attack attack attack with nothing to back up their statements......pathetic really pathetic......
melbrooks 2 months, 1 week ago
I appreciate the sentiments, Center. However, politics is a rough game. Just look at how folks on these forums question the motives/intelligence/integrity of school board members. Talk about a thankless and unpaid job that takes a tremendous amount of time!
In my opinion, there is no need to be disagreeable, even if I don't see eye to eye with someone. What I see here is a constant tearing down of others. I try not to participate in that activity--although it seems that's what much of what passes for political theater today.
RobHunterJohnson 2 months, 1 week ago
JC Lifer, I will have to agree, The Mccarty site is where the city wants it to go, my old Uncle told me stories about the city staff and his house! Jefferson City owns most of the properties involved. You know the old timers that built those house on the south side of MCcarty new where the water would go, i cannot undestand why others can't see, I did in the middle of 50/63 from a John Boat in 1993! How quick some have forgot! Rob
sancho 2 months, 1 week ago
I agree with centerguy and Mel. All the doom and gloom on this forum turns my stomach.
RobHunter, you seem like a likeable person, but come on, let's put aside the prejudice against out-of-towners. And everyone needs to stop with the good ole boy foolishness and bashing the chamber of commerce and school board.
I am a member of the chamber of commerce, I was on one of the committees for transformation, like about 200 other hard working people in this town. We worked hours and hours meeting, exchanging ideas, researching and putting together proposals. It got voted down, I'm over it. But everytime people like JCLifer or some other "the sky is falling" constant poster gets on here and slings mud at the chamber and trashes transformation, I realize that my genuine desire to help this community is being ridiculed and I am being insulted. I don't scratch backs, I don't pay for privilege, I'm not trying to smugly keep the little guy down. I do work hard, volunteer a lot, try to give constructive input, and pay close attention to what is happening in this town. I attend a lot of meetings, and study issues.
JCLifer and RobHunter, everytime you post comments slamming the chamber, you are insulting people like me who care a lot about this community and work hard to make it better. If you want anyone to take your comments seriously, you need to stop alienating so many of us who would join the conversation, but get tired of reading your constant insults about us and people like us.
JCLifer 2 months, 1 week ago
Sancho, no one doubts your passion. No one doubts your desire to help steer the ship.
What is being discussed is the direction the ship is being steered. If we keep going in the same wrong direction, we will never get to the destination. Or perhaps we have differing destinations for what we would like to see for our city.
My goals are pretty simple: A higher standard of living for all. Opportunities for all to be successful and achieve their potential. Equal opportunity for all. Inclusion of all voices. Discussion until consensus is achieved (consensus, not neccesarily agreement). A thriving city of good-paying jobs, bustling commerce, a postive place where everyone can be healthy and happy. A better deal for people than other cities like Columbia. A place where excellence is the goal, and pride through excellence is more than a slogan. A place where every individual feels valued and a part of the city. A place where we do it right the first time.
sancho 2 months, 1 week ago
Like Mel, I appreciate what the Farmer family has and continues to do for Jefferson City. Buying the Mall was a big risk and I suspect they will make it very successful.
The goal of getting a conference center here is not to keep all the money local. The goal is to get the best conference center for the money. I expect our city council to focus on the priorities and pick a company that can accomplish that.
Personally I think the W. McCarty site will have a better chance to succeed because it will attrack conferences based on it's proximity to the capitol and downtown, that putting the conference center at the mall will not accomplish. The MSP site doesn't have the infrastructure that is needed, so I feel like it's not in the running. Thank you State of Missouri Office of Administration for messing that site up royally.
I appreciate the hard work that our Mayor, city council and city staff have done on this project and commend them for getting this far. I have a great deal of confidence that they will pick a good developer and this conference center will indeed be built.
melbrooks 2 months, 1 week ago
Well said in both posts, Sancho.
For my part, I'll keep my powder dry until I enough to make an informed decision about the proposals. I have no idea how much each respondent is offering to match up to the city's revenue stream, nor what the bones of their proposals are. So far, I'm encouraged by the city's methodical approach.
RobHunterJohnson 2 months, 1 week ago
Center Guy, I am not hiding behind a pseudonym name! Center I did not introduce vulgar acronym to these posts, I am not a lier, nor am I stupid! Center no one has shown stupid in these post except you! Sancho, again I am not hiding behind a pseudonym name, I do not think I have ever mentioned the Chamber by name until now, over the course of years I have attened council meetings, P and Z meetings, attended hearings, read the NT, and City, I have never been invited to one of you parties, nor would I if you included me! I did work on the Capital Plaza construction back in 86-87, I did set the pumps thirty feet into the ground, outside of the lobby, and they failed! (We laughed when we placed them!)There is a reason why they called it MILL BOTTOM! My suggestion is to build your building on stilts, and I hope I it does not flood while you have your gayla in the new digs! There would be more parkingavaileable if it was angle parking up Mccarty, and as for that hill for our new school, that vote won't pass, 3.25 million for the ground? St Marys price was similar? A couple of your Bankers gone wild? (BGW) (All I did was ask when I paid my taxes) 8.25 million for the sale of a 6.25 million dollar Stadium and 1.75 million for two dillapidated buildings? Poor decisions by the school board! Just so you know WE NEED 2 HIGH SCHOOLS! Super Max sets vacant, at the prison site, and we built a new jail? Again one must raise questions when someone wants to raise my taxes! Rob
melbrooks 2 months, 1 week ago
Rob--the supermax facility has not been standing for quite some time. It was removed because it was on the site of the new federal courthouse.
Join the union, and you'll get invitations to union events. Join the chamber, and you'll get invitations to chamber events. Join a church, you'll get invitations to church events. Join the Lions, you'll get invitations to Lions meetings. Nothing sinister is going on in any of these situations.
RobHunterJohnson 2 months, 1 week ago
Sorry Mel, super max should be our new jail, and the new court house should be to the east, stand corrected. Rob
online_editor 2 months, 1 week ago
I think everyone who's going to comment on this article has made their positions clear on this issue at this stage. Thanks to those who attempt to stay focused on issues and defuse personal attacks.
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