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Today's Poll!FACT CHECK: Presidential debate missteps
John Rossitto watches the first presidential debate between President Barack Obama and Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney from a restaurant in San Diego, Wednesday, Oct. 3, 2012. Photo by The Associated Press.
Thursday, October 4, 2012
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama and Republican rival Mitt Romney spun one-sided stories in their first presidential debate, not necessarily bogus, but not the whole truth.
Here's a look at some of their claims and how they stack up with the facts:
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OBAMA: "I've proposed a specific $4 trillion deficit reduction plan. ... The way we do it is $2.50 for every cut, we ask for $1 in additional revenue."
THE FACTS: In promising $4 trillion, Obama is already banking more than $2 trillion from legislation enacted along with Republicans last year that cut agency operating budgets and capped them for 10 years. He also claims more than $800 billion in war savings that would occur anyway. And he uses creative bookkeeping to hide spending on Medicare reimbursements to doctors. Take those "cuts" away and Obama's $2.50/$1 ratio of spending cuts to tax increases shifts significantly more in the direction of tax increases.
Obama's February budget offered proposals that would cut deficits over the coming decade by $2 trillion instead of $4 trillion. Of that deficit reduction, tax increases accounted for $1.6 trillion. He promises relatively small spending cuts of $597 billion from big federal benefit programs like Medicare and Medicaid. He also proposed higher spending on infrastructure projects.
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ROMNEY on cutting the deficit: "Obamacare's on my list. ... I'm going to stop the subsidy to PBS. ... I'll make government more efficient."
THE FACTS: Romney has promised to balance the budget in eight years to 10 years, but he hasn't offered a complete plan. Instead, he's promised a set of principles, some of which — like increasing Pentagon spending and restoring more than $700 billion in cuts that Democrats made in Medicare over the coming decade — work against his goal. He also has said he will not consider tax increases.
He pledges to shrink the government to 20 percent of the size of the economy, as opposed to more than 23 percent of gross domestic product now, by the end of his first term. The Romney campaign estimates that would require cuts of $500 billion from the 2016 budget alone. He also has pledged to cut tax rates by 20 percent, paying for them by eliminating tax breaks for the wealthiest and through economic growth.
To fulfill his promise, then, Romney would require cuts to other programs so deep — under one calculation requiring cutting many areas of the domestic budget by one-third within four years — that they could never get through Congress. Cuts to domestic agencies would have to be particularly deep.
But he's offered only a few modest examples of government programs he'd be willing to squeeze, like subsidies to PBS and Amtrak. He does want to repeal Obama's big health care law, but that law is actually forecast to reduce the deficit.
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OBAMA: "Gov. Romney's central economic plan calls for a $5 trillion tax cut — on top of the extension of the Bush tax cuts, that's another trillion dollars — and $2 trillion in additional military spending that the military hasn't asked for. That's $8 trillion. How we pay for that, reduce the deficit, and make the investments that we need to make, without dumping those costs onto middle-class Americans, I think is one of the central questions of this campaign."
THE FACTS: Obama's claim that Romney wants to cut taxes by $5 trillion doesn't add up. Presumably, Obama was talking about the effect of Romney's tax plan over 10 years, which is common in Washington. But Obama's math doesn't take into account Romney's entire plan.
Romney proposes to reduce income tax rates by 20 percent and eliminate the estate tax and the alternative minimum tax. The Tax Policy Center, a Washington research group, says that would reduce federal tax revenues by $465 billion in 2015, which would add up to about $5 trillion over 10 years.
However, Romney says he wants to pay for the tax cuts by reducing or eliminating tax credits, deductions and exemptions. The goal is a simpler tax code that raises the same amount of money as the current system but does it in a more efficient manner.
The knock on Romney's plan, which Obama accurately cited, is that Romney has refused to say which tax breaks he would eliminate to pay for the lower rates.
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ROMNEY: Obama's health care plan "puts in place an unelected board that's going to tell people ultimately what kind of treatments they can have. I don't like that idea."
THE FACTS: Romney is referring to the Independent Payment Advisory Board, a panel of experts that would have the power to force Medicare cuts if costs rise beyond certain levels and Congress fails to act. But Obama's health care law explicitly explicitly prohibits the board from rationing care, shifting costs to retirees, restricting benefits or raising the Medicare eligibility age. So the board doesn't have the power to dictate to doctors what treatments they can prescribe.
Romney seems to be resurrecting the assertion that Obama's law would lead to rationing, made famous by former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's widely debunked allegation that it would create "death panels."
The board has yet to be named, and its members would ultimately have to be confirmed by the Senate. Health care inflation has been modest in the last few years, so cuts would be unlikely for most of the rest of this decade.
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OBAMA: It's important "that we take some of the money that we're saving as we wind down two wars to rebuild America."
THE FACTS: This oft-repeated claim is based on a fiscal fiction. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were paid for mostly with borrowed money, so stopping them doesn't create a new pool of available cash that can be used for something else, like rebuilding America. It just slows down the government's borrowing.
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ROMNEY: "At the same time, gasoline prices have doubled under the president. Electric rates are up."
THE FACTS: He's right that the average price has doubled, and a little more, since Obama was sworn in. But presidents have almost no influence on gasoline prices, and certainly not in the near term. Gasoline prices are set on financial exchanges around the world and are based on a host of factors, most importantly the price of crude oil used to make gasoline, the amount of finished gasoline ready to be shipped and the capacity of refiners to make enough to meet market demand.
Retail electricity prices have risen since Obama took office — barely. They've grown by an average of less than 1 percent per year, less than the rate of inflation and slower than the historical growth in electricity prices. The unexpectedly modest rise in electricity prices is because of the plummeting cost of natural gas, which is used to generate electricity.
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OBAMA: "Independent studies looking at this said the only way to meet Gov. Romney's pledge of not ... adding to the deficit is by burdening middle-class families. The average middle-class family with children would pay about $2,000 more."
THE FACTS: That's just one scenario. Obama's claim relies on a study by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research group. The study, however, is more nuanced than Obama indicated.
The study concludes it would be impossible for Romney to meet all of his stated goals without shifting some of the tax burden from people who make more than $200,000 to people who make less.
In one scenario, the study says, Romney's proposal could result in a $2,000 tax increase for families who make less than $200,000 and have children.
Romney says his plan wouldn't raise taxes on anyone, and his campaign points to several studies by conservative think tanks that dispute the Tax Policy Center's findings. Most of the conservative studies argue that Romney's tax plan would stimulate economic growth, generating additional tax revenue without shifting any of the tax burden to the middle class. Congress, however, doesn't use those kinds of projections when it estimates the effect of tax legislation.
Associated Press writers Andrew Taylor, Stephen Ohlemacher, Jonathan Fahey and Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar contributed to this report.
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Comments
eileen10 8 months, 2 weeks ago
Lots of back and forth on both sides which will be addressed by a lot of posters so all I have to say is I feel they both did a good job, didn't get nasty, Romney did a good job with humor referring to the Presidents 20th anniversary and good luck to both men even though I'm voting for Pres. Obama.
newone 8 months, 2 weeks ago
It was a good debate, I wans't real happy at the half as* answers Romney gave but that is pretty typical of Romney so that was no surprise and Obama didn't do the greatest at answering the question at hand either, I just wish they would both answer the question that is asked instead of giving us the run around, I will say Obama is still my pick for now.
clingingredneck 8 months, 2 weeks ago
You were unhappy with Romney's answers and preferred that lost, meandering that Obama gave you? All he kept saying was "Education". We education is fine if there's anywhere to practice it once you've learned it. if there is no JOB to go to it doesn't matter if you have all the education in the world you nincompoop.
TomScooterJones 8 months, 2 weeks ago
Yeah, Romney clearly won the debate, and has the energy, and the track record of success and of working with members of both parties to get things done. For me Romney closed the deal, I will vote for Romney.
tonto_goldberg 8 months, 2 weeks ago
You had previously said you were voting for Romney but what does that mean, anyhow?
jcguy25 8 months, 2 weeks ago
I'll agree that Romney was snappier with his responses, however, all he really kept saying was obviously well rehearsed statistics. He still has not given any specifics on HOW he would accomplish anything. Which the President called him on with the best line of the night.. "his plans are so good they are secret". But keep in mind, the President was flat in his first debates before he got elected and then came on stronger before the election. Until Romney can give specifics, I don't see how anyone could change their mind right now.
newone 8 months, 2 weeks ago
I agree, Obama's best line was "his plans are so good they are secret", I am all for hearing Romney out on what he plans to do he just refuses to give any details which seems pretty shady to me, here we are a month before the election and he still doesn't have details? That just doesn't sit right with me. He may come out next debate and tell us everything but until he does my vote will be for Obama, I at least know what his plans are.
clingingredneck 8 months, 2 weeks ago
He has laid out the goal and is saying to them, "This is where we want to be. How do we get there?". Unlike Obama who comes in and says "Here is what we are going to do. I don't care if you don't like it and I don't care if it doesn't make sense. You do it and you do it now." with Pelosi as his henchwoman. Why do you libs WANT a dictator?
asb 8 months, 2 weeks ago
Only a dictator's mother want's a dictator. Only the boogey-man-under-the-bed crowd, and those who want those boogey-man votes sees anything at all dictatorial about a president constrained, as all have been, by our system. No fiat, no coercion, no violations of law - just an endless whining about non-existant threats. You want to see a good and competent president as a rampaging Black Panther, so you will, no matter what. What a waste of an education.
MO4LIFE 8 months, 2 weeks ago
Why don't you state some facts instad of just regurgitating Republican and Faux news Lies that have been debunked constantly for the last year or more. Go look at the fact checkers. Oh wait i forgot the republican way is to not let a little thing like facts get in the way. They will just lie all the way to the white house and every last onee of you will be begging Obama to come Back after the first year of Romney. The man has not got a clue. He isn ot presidential in any way because all he does is tell lies and if hes not lying then he won't give a straight answer . In the Debate he basically said he wants everything to go to the states without giving the states to fund it all. TWO WARS AND PRESCRIPTION PROGRAM PUT ON CREDIT CARD BY THE REPUBLICANS WITHOUT ANYWAY TO PAY FOR THEM!! BUT THIS IS WHAT YOU CALL CONSERVATIVE!!!!!!
newone 8 months, 2 weeks ago
Last time I checked that is the job of the president, to tell us how they are going to get us out of this mess, I want someone who is going to lead this country into a better place, someone who has a plan and ways to do that in place, not someone who said well this is what I want done but I have NO idea how I am going to do it yet! My God the president is the leader of this country, it is his job to make decisions for this country, that is what we hire him to do, what good is having a president when we have to tell them step by step what should be done??
RobHunterJohnson 8 months, 2 weeks ago
Welcome back None of you business! Things must be slow in TN. Just a comment on the debate when Gov Romoney said, if you are 60 years old, or older no need to listen to this section? Well I am not 60, and I sure listened, these two Snakes are fixing to fleece the American workers? You can vote anyway you wish, but better take a good look at this plan? Looks to me like he might even fool with the age limit again! Then if you were listening he is pretty open to cutting the HOME MORTGAGE deduction, as well as the Health Care Deduction. I have never had to use the HC deduction , but I bet you it sure is nice to use it if you can qualify for it, because someone is probably SICK! He still is planning to cut taxes 20% across the board, as well as a continuation of the upper-income tax cuts? What would you cut if you had to cut somethings from the BUDGET? I don't know what happened to President Obama, (He was likely dazzeled by that well dressed SNAKE OIL SALESMAN), but the message from me will remain the same. What are they going to do with MC, SS, Health Care if your interested in these kinda of things better read deep between the lines! We also have to look deep between the lines from your posts , because you work for the HEALTH CARE INSURANCE INDUSTRY. I wonder what is your driving force is, because mine is money. Rob
connor 8 months, 2 weeks ago
HAHAHAHA I am still laughing and smiling after the trouncing your media created puppet Obama took last night.
I could picture the moaning text on this forum all day. Romney lied being the typical best the resident liberals around here could do. Of course I also knew there would be plenty of fear mongering (OMG he is coming for our social security and medicaid and you guys will need that someday too) along with the standard "he won't explain his plan" type stuff.
Now I know you guys are used to your news media and Hollywood production puppet only getting soft questions and lots of bubble gum poses. The great hope that is more a figment of your fantasies and whipped into being by teleprompters and fanciful daydreaming of a diversity champion. I know you needed someone to fill that spot and cannot believe your hoax is finally seeing some light. NO fact will ever change your mind and no stammering on national TV will make your support waver.
It's all good.
Yet you can take heart. Just like the now removed Obama campaign slogan "Vote like your lady parts depend on it" (Because they kinda do) your puppet remembered to constantly cry..... HIRE MORE TEACHERS!!!!!
So at least that bit of programing stuck and now he has a new slogan which assures him almost as much support from the same segment of the population. All is not lost all you have to do is hire more teachers....
Still laughing...
MO4LIFE 8 months, 2 weeks ago
anybody can win with 38 lies in 37 minutes but Republicans don't let facts get in the way of a campaign.
connor 8 months, 2 weeks ago
Yep just as I predicted... WAAAAAAH He LIED.
He didn't have to lie, all Romney had to do was show up. Your boy Obama choked because he is nothing but a media created fairy tail. A figment of your liberal, democrat, diversity worshiping cult of progressives.
Leftist wouldn't know a fact and don't care anyway. They deal only in utopian dreams and emotion with someone else always footing the bill.
MO4LIFE 8 months, 2 weeks ago
FACT CHECK!!!!! THAT IS ALLYOU HAVE TO DO TO SEE THAT MITT ROMNEY WILL SAY ANYTHING TO GET ELECTED. HIS OWN CAMPAIGN SAID HE LIED IN THE INTERIEWS AFTER THE DEBATE. BUT LIKE I KEEP SAYING FACTS DON'T MATTER TO REFUGLICANS.
RobHunterJohnson 8 months, 2 weeks ago
Conner if my canidate wins or takes a loss, I take the sign down the next morning. I do not WALLER IN THE DRIPPINGS. The questions stands, what would you cut out of the budget, and why did you put me in your post as a racist? ROB
connor 8 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm sorry RobHunter but I have no clue what you are talking about. The only time I saw where I used the racist label recently was the other day when I mentioned the "wise Latina" quote which was not aimed at you directly although anyone who supports that particular appointment is guilty of supporting racism in my view. Unless I missed it in my review of my past posts, which is possible I guess.
As for "wallering" as you put it I am not "wallering" for Romney but I am celebrating the fact that your liberal biased media couldn't shield the puppet like they have been doing for years now.
You see Rob my friend I am NOT so much pro Romney as I am completely and totally anti-Obama. Kinda the reverse of 99% of liberals in that they are just pro (the liberal fantasy perception of) Obama and whether it was Romney, Cain, or whoever running against him they would be just as opposed. He is a fake and a fraud and a total racist media construct and this past debate showed at least part of that to a huge number of people. Therefore I celebrate it.
Now that was entertainment.
Sequoia 8 months, 2 weeks ago
Mitt shook up the Etch-a-Sketch, and made his debut (or launched the sequel?) of Mitt the Pragmatic Centrist/Liberal Governor. After he'd spend the past few years campaigning for the nomination as a "severe conservative," and choosing a true believer in the conservative "movement" as his running mate, I think Obama, and much of the audience, was caught off guard.
Does anyone believe Mitt is now a centrist? Or, wait... did anybody believe he was a believer in the conservative "movement," or, wait... what are we supposed to think Mitt Romney is again?
I mean, we went from "cut taxes on the rich to get the government off the back of the job creators," (which many of you on here agreed with) to "I won't cut taxes on the rich." Well, all you Mitt Romney supporters... which is it? Is he going to cut taxes on the rich or not? Is that a good idea or not? Romney campaigned on cutting taxes for the rich... and you guys cheered him for it. Now he's not going to cut taxes on the rich? Isn't that horrible? He's a liberal now? Are you Mitt supporters now going to argue that it is a BAD idea to cut taxes on the rich? What's going on here? Do you Mitt Romney supporters even CARE what he says he stands for? Or is all that matters is that he made Obama look kinda bad for about an hour?
Is cutting taxes on the rich a good idea or not? Which is it? Someone just shoot straight for me, please. Tax cuts for the rich or not? Just tell me which one it is now.
What does Mitt Romney stand for? Do you guys care? He's acting like the flip-flopping liberal you all argued against in the primaries. Do you care about that, or not?
I agree Obama didn't look sharp. Maybe the President of the United States has more on his schedule than just debate prep?
But I pay way too much attention to take anything Mitt Romney says seriously.
I'm not a sucker. I don't buy a car from the guy who talks the loudest, has the slickest pitch or the brightest grin. Just because a guy has his patter down pat, doesn't mean I'm sold. Just because a guy talks fast, doesn't mean I'm following along. I've done my research, and I know Obama is the best buy right now. One bad debate doesn't change that for me.
You guys rip on Obama supporters for buying the style and not the substance. Well, that's what you're doing now with Romney. Having energy in a debate does not a president make.
Romney has no substance. We have no idea what he'll do with power. No one can refute that now.
Now that Mitt has begun tacking to the center, can we all agree that someone here is getting suckered? Either the primary voters or the general voters are getting shamelessly lied to, right?
Either Mitt is a "severe conservative" or he's not. You Romney voters... do you know which one you're voting for?
connor 8 months, 2 weeks ago
LOL as I wipe tears from my eyes. No one ever said he was a true conservative. I believe all anyone said was he was MORE conservative than your media puppet and more agreeable to States handling the things states should.
Oh I forgot the other Obama campaign slogan. 90 Billion for failed alternative energy companies but 2 billion for oil is outrageous.
Sequoia 8 months, 2 weeks ago
So, are tax cuts on the rich a good thing for the economy, or not?
Romney himself described himself using the words "severe conservative." Remember that? Do you believe that?
Or don't you?
You're touchdown dancing right now. I don't fault you for that.
But the play is under review, dude...
connor 8 months, 2 weeks ago
OK Seriously Sequoia. Let me say first that I watched the debate from the MSNBC feed. The one with Rachel Maddow and company. Mostly I chose that venue just so I wouldn't pick up any Fox news talking points and repeat em so you guys could throw that out at me. Also, and I mean this, I do try and listen to the other point of view even though I am sure you won't believe that.
All I heard about taxing the rich was that Romney said he wasn't going to cut their tax rate. That does not equal raising it. Now he said he was going to close a few loop holes so I am sure that will raise it some. Overall though his cutting of government and spending is what I am most interested in.
MO4LIFE 8 months, 2 weeks ago
get some details about how he is gonna do that and then maybe he could get my vote. But I don't believe a word of it when you keep saying oh i will do thisand then when you ask how. they say i will give more details later but the details don't ever come out.
connor 8 months, 2 weeks ago
OH here is another possible campaign slogan.
The Air Up There!!!!
jcguy25 8 months, 2 weeks ago
And Romney's new slogan can be "The wealthy are doing just fine".
MO4LIFE 8 months, 2 weeks ago
that 90 billion is a lie and only 4 out of 23 alternative energy companies failed. You people really need to go check the fact checkers and get real facts not Made up Romney facts that nobody can verify or prove. IT IS ALL LIES... How racist can you people be to let a man sit there and flip flop on everything he says and just flat out lie about everything. But that is the Man for the Presidency of the USA. So you would rather have a flip flopping liar who doesn't give a damn about this country oh wait let me rephrase only gives a damn about the rich people like him. Favorite Romney Quote that shows his ignorance " I can relate to Black People Because my family owned Slaves!" But that is who u want to be president.
IT HAS TO BE EITHER IGNORANCE OR RACISM YOU TELL ME!!!!! oH YEAH AND UNEMPLOYMENT IS UNDER 8% NOW TOO BUT WAIT LET ME GUESS YOU DON'T BELIEVE THE GOVT STATS BECAUSE REPUBLICANS DON'T CARE ABOUT FACTS!
connor 8 months, 2 weeks ago
OOOOOO And now the race card. Coming from someone who supports their puppet who spoke about removing infrastructure from the suburbs only to give it to the cities and minority owned business.
The real racism in this country is what the left is engaged in.
jpfelix 8 months, 2 weeks ago
That was the exact plan for New Orleans that Bush proposed! Was it ok then?
MO4LIFE 8 months, 2 weeks ago
that is correct jpfelix. Someday they will see through the bs and see reality!!!
Crump 8 months, 2 weeks ago
I don't know who some of these kool-aid drinkers are, but if you have paid attention the last four years, these Marxist has done his best to destroy what this country was founded on. Another four years of this type of governing could be the end of our great country as we know it. He has signed more executive orders giving himself power that any previous president. it's time for Nobama.
MO4LIFE 8 months, 2 weeks ago
another refuglican lie just like the on about Obama taking guns.
Sequoia 8 months, 2 weeks ago
I love the irony of how, in your world, America is the greatest, strongest country on earth, founded on divine principles, and yet Obama (who is a know-nothing incompetent media puppet who is dependent on a teleprompter) is, despite this incompetence, about to "destroy what this country is founded on."
Get it straight, bud... is Obama an incompetent, over-rated media darling, or his he an evil genius marxist socialist? Is this nation a rock or a piece of tissue paper?
It can't be both, right?
Just like Romney can't be a liberal and conservative at the same time, right?
Can you guys get your stuff straight over there, so I know what to argue with?
JCLifer 8 months, 2 weeks ago
The numbers will quietly be revised upward with a correction in another 2-3 weeks like usual. Meanwhile, there is no accounting for the millions who have exhausted their unemployment benefits and who have just quit looking for a job, and there is no accounting for folks laying around making babies who have never worked and who do not ever intend to work as long as the government payments roll in every month.
Things may be a whole lot better for the Wall Street bankers and the rich investors, but there has been continued decline in the economic condition of the working man.
MO4LIFE 8 months, 2 weeks ago
RIGHT SO LETS VOTE FOR A RICH INVESTOR TO BE PRESIDENT TO KEEP THE WORKING MAN ON THE DECLINE WHIE THE RICH INVESTORS AND WALL STREET KEEP GETTING RICHER!!! THAT MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!!!!
JCLifer 8 months, 2 weeks ago
At least the rich investor has a proven record of working with others, even across the aisle, and he has a proven record of success.
I would rather have a winner in the office than the current loser who has failed at everything he has attempted in the past 3-1/2 years except to weaken the USA.
RobHunterJohnson 8 months, 2 weeks ago
Thanks for that good news Grace! I am glad this Nation is on its way back to prosperity. I think i will have me have another glass of that KOOL-AID. Rob
TomScooterJones 8 months, 2 weeks ago
It's a miracle! Suddenly like the wave of a magic wand, the unemployment problem dips below 8....oh wait the new jobs are trending lower so how can this be?...I know we will "revise" the last few months, and get the results we want....er need after the debate. Never mind that man behind the curtain...the great and powerful Chicago machine has spoken! Nuff said.
connor 8 months, 2 weeks ago
Well it does kinda make some sense. We are nearing the point of three years since the largest layoff and job loss happened so they have completely fallen off the unemployment radar and our aging population meant the workforce was shrinking anyway. Within another decade the percentage of the population able to work will be extremely low.
With all the people now on disability and the ones who had to find alternative means and the aging population the powers that be don't have to do much manipulation to pull this off.
Doesn't change what we see going on around us and doesn't paint over the temporary work force that has come to replace what we used to have.
JCLifer 8 months, 2 weeks ago
Also doesn't paint over the fact that most all of us are much poorer and have less hope for the future than we did four years ago. The financial cliff awaits in six months, and then everything is really gonna get bad. Even the non-partisan folks say that we haven't seen the worst yet, and it will be here soon after the election regardless of which candidate wins.
Obama had four years to try to fix things, and all he did was get us trillions of dollars deeper into debt, and he hasn't helped impove anything. We are so hosed. Headed to deep failure.
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