Student loses driving rights for Confederate flag

Sequoia 1 year, 4 months ago

Utterly predictable and banal sequence of postings on Confederate symbolism in three, two, one...

Gomer is likely protesting the present federal government, or just being a bad boy for effect and the girls in the morning parking lot, but his bad judgement regarding symbols is fortunately subject to some adult control.

wow 1 year, 4 months ago

The guy can fly the flag anywhere he wants as long as it;s done on private property; however when it comes to public property that's a different case. The school officials did the right thing and get my support for this decision. Now if the South Carolina politicians would get their act together we'd really be moving in the right direction.

The Confederate flag should not be flown on public property and it's not hard to understand why.

Here comes all the @@%$#!@about freedom of speech, about the right to succeed, southern pride, etc, etc,! Three, two, one, zero...... And it ain't even February yet:)

Sequoia 1 year, 4 months ago

You're the one who doesn't appear to understand. The conservatives on the court have given schools broad power over student speech. It used to be that suppression of free speech required evidence of disruption. But if you'll remember the "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" case, Justice Roberts wrote a 5-4 opinion stating that schools have the right to discipline students who display messages that conflict with school rules and policies, even if evidence of disruption is absent.

I assume Graceful cheered this decision, since it allowed the school to punish a librul for saying something about bong hits. Well, the same rule applies to your precious confederate flag, too. Can't you see it is the same law, just applied in a way you don't like?

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 4 months ago

Everything gets filtered first. Facts don't matter, the agenda is everything.

Sequoia 1 year, 4 months ago

This is all a bit moot, because in this case I think the school could probably demonstrate enough "disruption" to meet the Tinker analysis. But my point is that schools don't have to show disruption anymore. In my view, the court is not clear about what the standard is, which opens the door for government to prohibit speech it doesn't like.

The BH4J case was decided by reference to an earlier student speech case, where the court upheld a school's discipline for a speech that was some sort of sexual thing, finding that the school could discipline for speech, EVEN IF THERE IS NO DISRUPTION, based on the alleged offensiveness of the speech.

Look at what the court said about the principles it used to decide the BH4J case. What this is saying is that there is no need to show "disruption." In the Fraser case, the offensiveness alone was enough. In BH4J, the promotion of illegal drug use was enough (based on an analysis of the policy of discouraging illegal drug use).

So, to me, it sounds a lot like the law is that the court will uphold restrictions on student speech so long as there is a public-policy argument to be made (which, to me, sounds like legal mumbo jumbo for "speech I don't like.").

So, read these principles the court articulates below. Do you think it means the government can discipline a student for flying a confederate flag? What do YOU think it means? (Graceful, of course, wants to go back and ask the founding fathers what they would do about a student who flies a confederate flag. Their answer: "What's a confederate flag?")

"For present purposes, it is enough to distill from Fraser two basic principles. First, Fraser's holding demonstrates that "the constitutional rights of students in public school are not automatically coextensive with the rights of adults in other settings." Id., at 682. Had Fraser delivered the same speech in a public forum outside the school context, it would have been protected. See Cohen v. California, 403 U. S. 15 (1971); Fraser, supra, at 682-683. In school, however, Fraser's First Amendment rights were circumscribed "in light of the special characteristics of the school environment." Tinker, supra, at 506. Second, Fraser established that the mode of analysis set forth in Tinker is not absolute. Whatever approach Fraser employed, it certainly did not conduct the "substantial disruption" analysis prescribed by Tinker, supra, at 514. See Kuhlmeier, 484 U. S., at 271, n. 4 (disagreeing with the proposition that there is "no difference between the First Amendment analysis applied in Tinker and that applied in Fraser," and noting that the holding in Fraser was not based on any showing of substantial disruption).

Sequoia 1 year, 4 months ago

If a lot of students complain, or if fights break out, that would be evidence of disruption.

My position is that the recent line of school cases has gone too far towards punishing the content of speech. Trying to distinguish what speech is "political" does not seem particularly helpful. Almost any statement could be seen by someone as "political."

I would not punish a student for having a flag in his truck, unless there is some school rule or policy that gives school officials that power, or unless flying that flag creates a disturbance that interferes with the educational mission.

My whole point is that recent Supreme Court cases have shown a trend toward broader regulation of student speech based on the content of that speech, and that it is a so-called "conservative" court that has presided over this trend of reducing student rights.

Gabrielle 1 year, 4 months ago

interesting point in the last paragraph. I am curious to hear....read Graceful's response.

About the flag on the truck causing a disturbance, why would the solution be to have the flag removed instead of addressing the underlying cause of the disturbance - which in not the flag on the truck - rather what that was to people who were 'disturbed' or bothered by it? It seems that is really the root of all of this. People 'didn't like' it, so the flag is removed. Your thoughts?..and others too..

Sequoia 1 year, 4 months ago

The article here doesn't say much, but if you follow the link it looks like the school said he can't park the truck in the school lot with the flag in the back, because students could see the truck from the parking lot and it was causing a disturbance. The school didn't remove the flag. The kid removed the flag so he could park at school.

The problem is not just that the flag wasn't liked... the problem is that it was causing a disruption in the learning environment. I'm not sure what you mean by the "underlying cause."

Unrelated to your question, but interesting point in the linked story. The kids says he always gets asked about "racism." He says it is not racist. He says it is "a lot to do with how I grew up in the country and the beliefs behind it." That means nothing. My question is, what beliefs are those, and how does the confederate flag emody those beliefs in a way that some other symbol does not? Why does everyone swear up and down that the confederate flag is not about race, but they can't articulate any alternative symbolism?

Gabrielle 1 year, 4 months ago

Sequoia: your last paragraph gets to my 'underlying cause'. I have yet to read the link you refer to ...and likely will at some point. So this young man is asked some questions about it - did anyone follow up with questions similar to what you ask in the last paragraph.

Also, along the same line of thinking - 'underlying cause' - whatif has a post that begins with 'I am not sure why they felt anybody should be punished' and is slong the lines of what I am thinking. Asking people 'why?' in an environment that allows for a free discussion.

For convenience, this is whatif's post in its entirety:

"I am not sure why they felt anybody should be punished -- just causes resentment - its not going to change a person. Seems to me a better way to handle this is to have a discussion with all those involved face to face or the whole school for that matter. They missed a fantastic learning opportunity for a discussion to allow students to voice their concerns, predjudices, fears and to learn some real history. There is nothing wrong with learning and isn't that what our schools are suppose to be about.....wouldn't that promote acceptance of our differences....rather than feed or fuel our resentments...maybe even learn about values, character -- something that I wonder if it is being taught or experienced at home ..... WHAT IF?????"

Does that make sense?

wow 1 year, 4 months ago

It's his car and while true...the SCHOOL GROUNDS ARE NOT HIS PRIVATE PROPERTY and thus the school has the say on what they will/will not allow. If the kid wants to park his car off campus and display his Confederate Puke Rag...that's fine, but not on Public School property or at Public School events. As for understanding/defending the 1st Amendment. Man what a JOKE. The Confederacy supporters violated not only common sense, the violated darn near every Constitutional Right their 1/3 of a person victims were suppose to be able to enjoy. Rights these supossed lesser people had helped defeat the British to get? Ya knows those people who were forced to work for no wages or be killed, yeah, those same people who were denied an education and a bunch of other comforts which their skin color prevented them from getting. Even after the war...the lie about 40 acres and a mule...the syphlis experiments, Selma, Bombingham, Bull Conner, George Wallace, pick your poision...the Confederacy and those northern/southern supporters of this raciest lifestyle drapped themselves in this Confederate symbol of American evil as they professed their love for the good ole days.....of leaglyzed lynching, raping, murdering...the good ole days of chattel slavery. Yeah I know eactly what you mean about standing up for the 1st Amendement...the big difference is I'm not demanding 1s Amendmant rights or any of my rights at the same time I'm denying somebody else theirs!!!!!

We obviuolsy have our differences on what took place in American History and what is currently taking place today... We also obviuolsy disagree on the what occurred in tis case. You say let the kid promote hate. I say otherwise... IMO the school officials did the right thing. They ask the kid to comform to the rules of good order and dicscipline and he choose not to...therefore they suspended him...and I say GOOD JOB!

muleman 1 year, 4 months ago

You still have the right to speak freely.......untill it offends someone

wow 1 year, 4 months ago

The sad thing is this....Riley Collier's actions are a result of what he was taught. He was taught by some ADULT that the Confederacy is/was something good. Although not every Southener owned slaves or promoted hate....the vast majority of Southerners/Northerners did everything possiblt to make sure the system of racial inequality was the law. It's one thing to teach the kid about how ones ancestors were succesfull and so on. Sure be proud of that, but it's an altogether different deal when teaching a kid that Confederate Supporter's should be praised and respected for centuries of enslaving millions of innoncent people. It's a different thing to teach a kid that even after the Confederacy got defeated. This same system "the Confederacy"...was again used by Northern and Southern Confederate supporters to continue the systematic torture, rape, murder, inequality, that slavery produced. Oh sure Chattel slavery was over, but the violent hatred towads innocent people was the practiced law up unitl the late 1960's and is a direct result of why there is still so much racial distrust today.

The kid lost his driving priviledges....today... I say good deal. But ssense this is a school related topic, Let's use it as a teaching moment. You Confederate Supporters and Young Collier, please answer this question. If he/they were 'back in old Dixie" what would he/they change to ensure that conversations and questions like this would not need to occurr in the future?

spelchek 1 year, 4 months ago

wow, I see more integrated couples than ever before. Your rants about "...there is still so much racial distrust today..." makes you look uninformed. So much distrust America voted a black (and white) man to the White House? Quit beating the horse named Racism; it's down, tired, and doesn't want to go any further.

asb 1 year, 4 months ago

In a multi-racial society, race is always there and a fair topic for important conversation and critical thinking. Wow is spot on regarding racism in America. Sorry but it's there. It can be managed but it cannot go away, it's our nature.

spelchek 1 year, 4 months ago

asb, correct, it will never go away, nor will bad behavior in general. All the ugly elements in life will always exist in pockets of society. Now, exactly how is talking, having a conversation, about race critical to my thinking? I judge on behavior and character before looking at skin color. Seems to me the ones keeping racism alive under the guise of "critical thinking" are the ones who have issues dealing with race.

Gabrielle 1 year, 4 months ago

I like the last sentence, spelchek. To follow this line of thinking, I have often thought people were attempting to rescucitate. I actually heard a 'black community leader' say, '...just keepin' it alive'' in reference to racism.

Gabrielle 1 year, 4 months ago

.....and if I think about this - it almost makes me sick to my stomach to think about how pain this has caused people of all groups - how much hope gone - how much of America's promise is wiped away - how many lives ruined. I really appreciate you saying this. Thanks.

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 4 months ago

I'd like for you to explain those comments. It seems you want people who know better to somehow look the other way or rise above racial insults and taunts and slogans and symbols. Do you believe the solution is for people who know better to say "It's ok, that flag just represents regional pride." or "It's ok, that's just a hangman's noose in front of city hall." or "It's ok, that's just a cross burning in a black family's front yard." Is that it?

Gabrielle 1 year, 4 months ago

It really is in the interpretation and I appreciate you asking, tonto. I don't know what you mean when you say 'people who know better'. Having said that, in these two posts, I am talking about where we really are. think about the quote I used '...just keepin' it alive'. Why would someone - someone who supposedly is an advocate for 'the black community' to intentionally promote something that is harmful to others. Why does one do that??? Where are we REALLY in all of this? The 'it's ok' statements are from other posts I made in other discussions for other articles. I suggest you go back and reread the statements - all statements - to understand what I am saying.

xhepera 1 year, 4 months ago

Ahhhh, the old, "racism died with the advent of interracial couples and the election of Obama to the presidency" line. Would that it were so. Racism is quite alive and quite well in this country. Mid-Missouri is one of its bastions.

Gabrielle 1 year, 4 months ago

Maybe we ought to ban anyone wearing a cross - a symbol of an innocent man hung?

asb 1 year, 4 months ago

When that cross is worn as part of a disruptive or hatefull message, yes, the schools have the right to ban it.

xhepera 1 year, 4 months ago

Apples and pomegranates, Petunia. Rather distasteful as well. That "innocent man" would have had nothing but contempt for the Confederacy and its aims.

Gabrielle 1 year, 4 months ago

xhepera: How do you determine this 'innocent man' would have had contempt for the Confederacy and its goals?

JMO 1 year, 4 months ago

I have the solution! Let's just build a wall between the north and south - of course, some states will have to be cut in half - and never, ever let a symbol of the confederacy thru. We'll have laws against confederate flags and the playing of Dixie. There won't be any more civil war reenactments either, no sir! And we'll definitely ban showing The Dukes of Hazard on northern TV. 1/2 to 2/3 of the White Collar Comedy Tour would be gone too.

Am I being sarcastic and nasty? Yeah I suppose I am. But it's time to stop being offended by "symbols" and assuming that people are praising and respecting the confederacy for "centuries of enslaving millions of innocent people". I'm not going to say no-one, because there are a lot of sick, twisted people out there, but VERY few people have any desire to return to the plantation days. To most people, that flag is simply a symbol of the south. And the south isn't bad - it's just geography. There's nothing wrong with loving being from the south. Not everyone has some nefarious intent when that flag shows up. Heck, I went to school with kids who had them in the back of every pickup truck, right behind their gun rack. They weren't racists - they were just rednecks.

I don’t in any way support slavery. But I think it’s time people got over being so easily offended. Guess what? There was slavery. It happened. It was horrible and wrong, a black mark on our country’s history, and the vast majority of the people believe it was horrible and wrong and even if they are in the minority that don’t – it’s still illegal now. In my opinion, the confederate flag simply doesn’t mean what it used to. It doesn’t MEAN slavery and secession anymore. All it is to kids these days – or even most adults - is pride for being from that part of the country. Not pride for what it USED to be like, but what it’s like today. Isn’t it a good thing, that a symbol that once meant hate, can now mean something else?

JCLifer 1 year, 4 months ago

Amen!

Sequoia 1 year, 4 months ago

I think the reason people actually fly the flag is not because it is no longer a racially charged symbol, but because the flag IS a racially charged symbol. It's a "bad boy" thing. A little rebellion, if you will.

Its the exact same reason I put posters of death metal bands in my Catholic grade school locker. I knew EXACTLY what Megadeth meant to my Satan-fearing teachers. That's why I did it.

Same thing here. Generally, I think people who fly the flag do so because they WANT to offend certain people. Childish, but not harmful in and of itself.

Of course, nothing is ever truly "in and of itself."

JMO 1 year, 4 months ago

As I told my son in grade school, If you quit reacting to the jerks that tease you, it won't be fun for them anymore and they'll stop. If you keep stomping your feet and getting red in the face and flying off the handle, they'll keep doing it because they know it gets to you.

Now if teasing becomes bullying, that's a different story.

muleman 1 year, 4 months ago

1/2 to 2/3 of the White Collar Comedy Tour would be gone too. How much of 4 is 2/3 ?

JMO 1 year, 4 months ago

LOL! Seeing how I meant the BLUE Collar Comedy Tour, I'd say my math was the least of my problem with that statement.

spelchek 1 year, 4 months ago

Ahhhhhhh, did the big mean sticker make you feel bad? There, there...let me ban it and make it go away.

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 4 months ago

Here's yer sign......

spelchek 1 year, 4 months ago

This kid would have never been bothered if he was a transsexual Muslim with southern pride.

tonto_goldberg 1 year, 4 months ago

That's good! Bonus points if his pickup truck has 4 wheel drive.

JCLifer 1 year, 4 months ago

and truck nutz. (google it if you need to)

Gabrielle 1 year, 4 months ago

good thing I wasn't sitting in the library when I read this - got me going - lol!

wow 1 year, 4 months ago

In ancient times the Cross was a tool the Romans used to humiliate and hang criminals on. These criminals were tied to the cross and left to suffer until they died. On the day the Romans crucified Christ at Golgotha (later translated to Calvary), the cross came to be known as the place where the Son of Man died for the sins of world. Since then people wear the Cross out of reverence and respect for Jesus Christ suffering such a horrific death in order to save a world of sinners. Even though the Cross is a symbol of redemption, if a student wears/displays it at school on school property, the student can and will be made to remove the Cross or face disiciplinary measures. Now all that being said..I FIND IT QUITE DISGUSTING THAT SOMEBODY WOULD EQUATE DISPLAYING THE CROSS TO DISPLAYING THE CONFEDERATE FLAG!

The Confederate Rag is a symbol of rebellion, IT'S A SYMBOL THAT PEOPLE RALLIED UNDER TO COMMITT HORRIBLE CRIMES AGAINST INNOCENT BLACK/ RED/YELLOW/BROWN/MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN. When a white person tried to help these unfortunante victims...he/she became a victim as well.

You say get over centuries of unpunished crimes of slavery, rapes, murders and various other violent crimes that happened during that period. I mean after all who can be punished for those acts? Even though it's easily possible to determine the large number of companies that benefitted from slave labor and evolved into the giant coopporations of today. But we have to get over it, because it wouldn't be right making anyone pay for forced free labor of black people.

Ok I'm over slavery (not really) but am I also expected to get over centuries of legalized Jim Crow, Black Codes and Segregation? Am I also suppose to get over that there are archieved documentation, photo's and film footage of these crimes taking place, yet very few of these criminals have been prosecuted. People can be clearly seen wrapped in this Confederate Rag committing crimes against innocent people and as of now have escaped punishment. But I should accept this RAG as a symbol of pride and dignity? PKDN!

I asked a question which hasn't been answered yet. So I'll ask again.. You Confederate Supporters and Young Collier, If you were 'back in old Dixie" what would you change to ensure that conversations and questions like this would not need to occurr in the future?

Gabrielle 1 year, 4 months ago

wow: nice history lesson. You are free to feel what ever you would like to feel about anything - including the fact that wearing the cross was mentioned - we all see I said it. You are also free to deal with the past however you would like. You get to choose to hold onto it as looooooonnnng as you would like.

In response to the unanswered question in your last paragraph - you are talking to 'Confederate Supporters and Young Collier' - don't understand it entirely - It would take a 'Confederate Supporter' to answer your queston. Many people have shared their perspective with you and you continue to see them as 'Confederate Supporter's - again as you well know - you are free to see it how you want. Expect what you would like from people. Do what you would like. You are soooooo free to do so in America. Enjoy your privileges in this fine country!

spelchek 1 year, 4 months ago

Funny, I looked at "It's a black thing, you wouldn't understand" t-shirts as "RAG"s. However, I didn't go around telling others what they should and shouldn't wear according to my sensibilities.

wow 1 year, 4 months ago

Geexz Gracefull tell us how you really feel. But if that's how you think, OK...but I know we won't be attending the same Christmas party. Inspite of that...good luck to ya.

Petunia...you can answer the question too. Please answer.. If you were 'back in old Dixie" what would you change to ensure that conversations and questions like this would not need to occurr in the future?

Also...just so you realize that I'm not just shouting Wolf...read Graceful's reply to my question.

Gabrielle 1 year, 4 months ago

wow: I did read Graceful's response. I suggest you ask Grace why the response to your question is what it is. I answered from my perspective. My guess is that since Grace answered the question there is a different perspective other than yours and mine. So go ahead - presume to know what Graceful's reasoning is and RUN with it!!!

wow 1 year, 4 months ago

Petunia....I don't want to presume anything, but did you forget to answer the question? If so here it is again. If you were 'back in old Dixie" what would you change to ensure that conversations and questions like this would not need to occurr in the future?

I can accept if you too would change the outcome of the war. I'd be concerned about your answer, but would also realize some people are just like that.

Newsflash: New Math recently taught in Ga (agggh Dixie) school. 1. If each tree had 56 oranges and their were eight SLAVES. How many would each Slave have to pick in order to have equal shares? 2. If the Slave Fred got two beatings each day. How many beatings would he get in a week? These are Math questions which were assigned to Ga. school students. Does that not concern you? It does me...it also concerns me that the NAACP is invloved and will probably turn this into a fiasco instead of the parents of those school children banning together with their non NAACP legal advisors to resolve the issue. But that's another topic

How much longer can we continue splitting hairs about racism? Until we answer that issue or at least make a bit more progress in this area, there will be other incidents where people stand at odd's over the Confederate Flag/ Confederacy, white, black, yellow, and green racism. I don't have all the answers, but I do know that if more people spoke out against this behavior more often...we would be much better off. We'd also have less incidents where the Confederacy anything is an issue and less incidents where people are opposed to an item that originally was an execution device, yet today has come to symbolize the redemption which resulted due to te death of he who has died for ALL our sins.

JCLifer 1 year, 4 months ago

Wow, you are living in the 1860s and the rest of us are living in 2012. I cannot change the past, so I choose not to perseverate on it. All I can do is the here in now, and plan for the future.

I also cannot appologize for the sins of long gone dead people, so I don't get too worked up over that either. I certainly refuse to pay retribution for what long gone dead people may or may not have done, so don't look to me for your source of free money. Besides, you were not harmed by these long gone dead people. The people who were harmed are also long gone and dead.

Here is your invitation to join the rest of us in 2012. You certainly are welcomed to do so. However, if you choose not to, well, I guess there isn't any hope for you.

Gabrielle 1 year, 4 months ago

wow: I am pretty much in line with JCLifer's comments here. Well said, JCLifer.

I AM speaking out,wow. It seems it is not what you think is 'doing the right thing'. I live my life by the standards I set. Not yours. Obviously you want something I am not providing. The question will hang there then - not b/c I haven't answered it - b/c the answer I provided is not satisfactory to you. Somehow I will find it in myself to 'be okay' with not meeting your satisfaction/expectations. Of course, I could've been persistent about questions I asked of you, too, and you didn't answer. I let them go.

I can see why JCLifer says 'I guess there isn't any hope for you.' I would like to think there is. That is just me being ignorant and naive. Go ahead and call me - and others - what you so desire. You are free in this country called The United States of AMerica to do just that. .....gosh....we have come a long way.....smile.

JMO 1 year, 4 months ago

I heard about the Georgia school thing. Apparently they were "tying together" the classes on history, where they were studying slavery and the civil war, and math. Totally bizaaro. Will they say, "If a crusader kills five muslims a day for five days" or "If four women are burned as witches, but three were innocent" when they're studying medival history? I can't imagine who thought that was a good idea. I find this to be a different thing than simply displaying a flag.

Gabrielle 1 year, 4 months ago

yes....yes to 'I find this to be a different thing than simply displaying a flag.'

whatif 1 year, 4 months ago

I am not sure why they felt anybody should be punished -- just causes resentment - its not going to change a person. Seems to me a better way to handle this is to have a discussion with all those involved face to face or the whole school for that matter. They missed a fantastic learning opportunity for a discussion to allow students to voice their concerns, predjudices, fears and to learn some real history. There is nothing wrong with learning and isn't that what our schools are suppose to be about.....wouldn't that promote acceptance of our differences....rather than feed or fuel our resentments...maybe even learn about values, character -- something that I wonder if it is being taught or experienced at home ..... WHAT IF?????

Gabrielle 1 year, 4 months ago

Whatif: WELL SAID! i quoted your post to Sequoia further up as part of my response. This is well stated and gets to the heart of the matter. THANKS!!!

wow 1 year, 4 months ago

JCLIfer I accept you inviattion to live in the present...so here is a question that relates to a current issue. Why isn' the current President's picture hanging in governement buildings throughout Missouri today. Currently Obama's photo isn't dispayed and hasn't been there ever since he was elected. Now if it's a case where no presidental photo's are displayed in state or federal buildings than I can handle that. But it has been my expereince...military, federal, state and county service, that the photo of the sitting President is always displayed to the viewers lefgt along side the sitting Governor. Am I right correct?

Please let's not make this a racial issue unless of course it proves to be. Whatever the reason I ask that we discuss this as responsible people. We may not agree and may get a bit testy..but I hope wecan remain civil. Truth is this issue could be as harmless as...what I'm asking isn't required, never ocurred or was simply an oversite that has been allowed to occurr for a few years.

It does not look good for people to be defending the display of the Confederate Flag in American Schools and not the the proper governmental respect extended to The Presidnt of The United States. I look forward to your spirited response.

Student loses driving rights for Confederate flag

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