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Today's Poll!Connecticut school shooting revives gun debate
Friday, December 14, 2012
LITTLETON, Colo. (AP) — A lone police cruiser outside Columbine High School was the only outward reaction Friday to an even deadlier attack at a Connecticut elementary school.
But in a state that was rocked by the 1999 Columbine school massacre and the Aurora movie theater shooting less than six months ago, Friday's shootings renewed debate over why mass shootings keep occurring and whether gun control can stop them.
"Until we get our acts together and stop making these ... weapons available, this is going to keep happening," said an angry Tom Teves, whose son Alex was killed in the theater shooting last July in the Denver suburb of Aurora.
Teves was choked up as he answered a reporter's call Friday. A work associate of his lives in Newtown, Conn., where 27 people were killed, including 18 children, at Sandy Hook Elementary. The connection chilled and angered him.
The Connecticut gunman was reported to have used a .223-caliber rifle, although it wasn't immediately clear what type. Weapons that use the .223 caliber ammunition can range from assault-style rifles similar to the AR-15 semi-automatic used by James Holmes in Aurora in the July 20 shooting that killed 12 people and wounded 70 to hunting rifles.
The gunman in the recent Oregon shopping mall shooting also used an AR-15, and the Washington, D.C.-area snipers John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo used a .223-caliber Bushmaster, both largely civilian versions of the military's M-16.
Versions of the AR-15 once were outlawed under a U.S. assault weapon ban in 1994. That prohibition expired in 2004 and Congress, in a nod to the political clout of gun enthusiasts, did not renew it.
This week, Colorado Gov. John Hickenlooper generated a storm of debate after declaring that it was time to start debating gun control measures. Hickenlooper specifically mentioned the AR-15.
"When you look at what happened in Aurora, a great deal of that damage was from the large magazine on the AR-15. I think we need to have that discussion and say, 'Where is this appropriate?'" Hickenlooper said Wednesday.
After Friday's school shootings, Hickenlooper told reporters there's no use waiting until news coverage fades.
"We can't postpone the discussion on a national level every time there's a shooting. They're too often," he said.
A visibly emotional President Obama seemed willing to renew debate, calling for "meaningful action" to prevent similar shootings.
Also Friday, Mark Kelly, the astronaut husband of former U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, who was shot in the head during an attack that killed six people in Tucson, Ariz., last year, said the Connecticut shooting should "sound a call for our leaders to stand up and do what is right."
"This time our response must consist of more than regret, sorrow, and condolence," Kelly said on his Facebook page, calling for "a meaningful discussion about our gun laws and how they can be reformed and better enforced to prevent gun violence and death in America."
Tom Sullivan, whose son Alex also died in the Aurora theater shooting, welcomed the discussion.
"Clips that hold 50 bullets? The only animal you're after with that is man. There is no other reason. That's what that is used for. My question to those people is, 'Why do you need a clip that holds 50 bullets?'" Sullivan said in a phone interview.
But Sullivan said mental health, not gun control, is a more pressing concern.
"We all need someone in our lives to care," Sullivan said. "If we see a friend, a colleague, a co-worker and they're having a hard time, we need to reach out."
Some shoppers interviewed at Oregon's Clackamas Town Center, scene of the Tuesday mall killings, had similar reactions.
"We need to pay more attention to the people close to us, because I think there's a lot of signs prior to things," said shopper Sierra Delgado of Happy Valley, Ore.
Mental health screenings alone aren't enough, other Colorado shooting survivors said.
Tom Mauser, who became a gun-control advocate after his son Daniel was killed at Columbine, urged officials to stop "playing defense" on gun control.
"Let's not say once again, 'Oh, this is not the right time to talk about it.' It is the right time to talk about it.
"We are better than a nation that has people killing children and has people cowardly shooting people in shopping malls and schools and nursing homes. We're better than this."
Such emotional appeals didn't come only from gun control supporters. Friday's responses from both sides foretold a heart-wrenching debate.
"They're going to use the bodies of dead children to push their agenda," predicted Dudley Brown of the Denver group Rocky Mountain Gun Owners.
Associated Press writers Brian Skoloff in Phoenix; Terrence Petty in Portland, Ore.; and P. Solomon Banda, Dan Elliott, Ivan Moreno and Kristen Wyatt in Denver contributed to this report.
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Comments
dardet2012 5 months, 1 week ago
No amount of gun control will ever stop these murderous cowards from acquiring weapons. The only people who are affected by gun control are law abiding citizens. When was the last time you heard of criminals listening to the law.
JCLifer 5 months, 1 week ago
One has to wonder how different the outcome would have been if every teacher and administrator was required to be trained and to conceal carry a handgun. A school and any public building with the "no weapons allowed" signs are all advertising and inviting to fruitcakes to come on inside and start executing the innocent and unarmed occupants. Gun control advocates have no idea how dangerous and deadly their wrong-headed beliefs are.
Guns should be encouraged and supported in schools and public buildings.
If they ban guns, then only criminals will have guns.
linoge 5 months, 1 week ago
Those "no weapons allowed" signs started popping up all over the country shortly after they blew up those office buildings in New York City on 9/11/2001.
JCLifer 5 months, 1 week ago
If the WTC had those signs, al Quaida would have turned the jetliners around.
JCLifer 5 months, 1 week ago
Satan is so happy we took God out of schools. No prayers. No Bibles. No Crosses. Schools are very comfortable places for Satan these days.
AFfalcon 5 months, 1 week ago
So you are saying that if all of these things were allowed in the schools this would not have happened?
To be honest I think somebody knew something was breaking down with this guy. I mean black fatigues body armor and he is not law enforcement? The people selling him these items were not suspicious? The hand guns he used I believe carry a 9 round clip and possibly more, he would have had to been remarkablly accurate or just incredably lucky because those guns have a pretty good recoil. He would have had to practice at some point. As a parent and you suspect your child may have some mental issue, why would you bring firearms into their life? You are not only protecting others but keeping them from harming themselves.
Paroquet 5 months, 1 week ago
Lifer? Puh-lease. Remember, you asked for this.
You keep denying that you don't have a monopoly on faith and belief. Don't forget; God did this. He's omnicient and omnipotent. That means ALL seeing and ALL powerful. Second to none. Furthermore, HE knew you before your were born. Stands to reason then; God knew what was in the offing before the shooter drew his first breath. And God let it happen.
You don't even need Satan. In any event, God Created him, and in His omniscience, knew what he was doing when he did.
Or is your God not all knowing and all powerful? If He is, he either made this happen, or let it happen. If neither, then He is not all seeing or knowing. Meaning God is fallible, and neither omniscient nor omnipotent. So, place the blame where it belongs or redefine your conception of the Almighty.
JCLifer 5 months, 1 week ago
EVIL did this, not God. This is what happens when you do not let God in, for He is always in control.
Banning guns will not stop EVIL.
Repent before it is too late.
JCLifer 5 months ago
Huh? No, I don't have a monoploy on faith and belief. However, the One True God does.
A lot of folks are gonna be shocked when the Rapture comes. I kind of hope it is this Friday. I've had about enough.
earlsmusic 5 months, 1 week ago
So God depends on bibles and crosses? That's a very weird concept of God. Students get their religion and spirituality at home, not at school. Schools have a full schedule of teaching classes and running pep rallies. You cannot "run God out of schools" or anywhere else. Where do people get such notions, other than to shift blame?
jcguy25 5 months ago
Perhaps it is because the parents are athiest or pagan or any other religion or just non-religious. God should not be taught in schools, that is a parents job as they see fit whether it is your Christian God or another. If a child is Christian then God is with them at school, at all times. School is not the place to force exposure of religion.
jcguy25 5 months ago
You couldn't be more wrong. It does not take religion to be taught right from wrong or that there are consequences for their actions. And my attitude toward religion has NOTHING to do with this violence. My family was not religious, I have been able to grow, learn and make up my own mind about what I choose to believe. I do know right from wrong. Do you know if the shooter was a religious person?
jcguy25 5 months ago
Are you saying you cannot have a moral core without religion? I know many many non-religious people who have very good morals, myself included. I did not need to read the Bible to know right from wrong, I did not have to attend church to know right from wrong. This is merely your opinion. So, say this shooter was raised in a religious household, how do you explain why he didn't know right from wrong? The answer is simple, this young man had mental issues, religion had nothing to do with it.
RobHunterJohnson 5 months ago
I think I read he was Catholic? Rob
sancho 5 months, 1 week ago
Poor little kids. I cannot imagine the pain of the families and the community.
If you want something to change, contact your political representatives: state and federal. Let them know your thoughts. It is pretty easy to make phone calls, email or write to the people that make the laws that need to be changed.
How unbelievably sad.
JCLifer 5 months, 1 week ago
Contact your legislators and demand that God be allowed in schools. Outlawing His Word from schools, while allowing the Koran is plain EVIL.
connor 5 months, 1 week ago
The first change we could make is to treat and detain dangerous, off balance people the way they were always handled in the past, not just given a prescription and placed into society waiting for the explosion to happen.
Current policies in dealing with the mentally ill and spending cuts in these areas to allow more entitlement spending in others is what is causing incidents like this one.
We waste billions of dollars on social engineering experiments for so called "equality" and sacrifice other segments of the population while creating a powder keg of violence just waiting to explode.
And explode it will.
3633 5 months, 1 week ago
We do not need to arm teachers, we need to address the issue of mental illness and perhaps have security guards at the schools. Arming teachers is dangerous also!!!!Perhaps there can be doors where people can announce who they are and then a button can get pushed once they are approved to come in. This is the way it is at lots of schools now, you can't just walk in.
John 5 months, 1 week ago
It is interesting that you are willing to put your child's life in the hands of a security guard but feel it would be dangerous to arm teachers. I find that position rather odd. Even if you meant police officer I fail to understand why you think a police officer is more trustworthy than a teacher.
TrueStory 5 months, 1 week ago
Mental illness and health insurance, depression and hopelessness. Until we as a country MAKE insurance companies cover issues like mental illness this will continue to happen regardless of anything else. PERIOD. Obamacare what about the mentally ill. Unlimited access to care......I think not. It should be though.
RobHunterJohnson 5 months, 1 week ago
I have to wonder sometimes having worked replacing heating and cooling in some the mental institututions at Fulton, and you cannot help but meet some of the Clients or Staff! I was told by some Staff that the Republicans tend to cut the budgets on these institutions that allows early releases for some? It all boils down to if you want better mental health you have to pay for it! If you want crimnals locked up you have to pay for it! Those guns did not kill those sweet little children, or teachers! A deranged young adult who stole these weapons from an enabling mother did. I think that if a Teacher wishes to become a concealed carry Teacher, we should allow CCT if they are willing, and can pass the necessary background checks! Rob
TrueStory 5 months, 1 week ago
Oh no democrats are also going to cut mental health. It is expensive and long term. Most of the homeless have a mental illness that was treated but they couldn't afford or do not want to take the medications. NO insurance covers mental illness to the extent they should. My insurance covers 16 hours. REALLY? They don't get care because they really don't have enough of a voice. Go work at a facility or just visit for a week and think about the number of days they are allowed for care. It is was not politics but with obamacare it is now....What say you OBAMA?
RobHunterJohnson 5 months, 1 week ago
The Republicans are the leaders in the cutting of the BUDGETS, Prisons and Mental Health suffer at the very beginning of the Budget cutting! You know, what if we all could have some decent health coverage, maybe these people who need help could find the avenue they need? The conservatives on this page including yourself spent the last 6 months, or more beating poor Obama to a pulp over the Obama Care program? I do not have a clue to whats in it, but if we had OC maybe a Health Professional will catch something that others are not even willing to speak of in their own family? You get what you pay for with insurance, prison, mental health, and health care. All these drunkin drivers are probably self medicating theirselves! Put them in prison, and let mental health be a part of their release? Gun Crime, put them in jail, enforce the law, but once again due to budgets most will have shortend sentences? The Tea Party is synomus with cutting taxes, they do not want to pay for NOTHING, and we are watching this once again play out in our House! The Govenors that have released these folks over the years BOND, Ashcroft, Blunt, and Nixon due to budget restaints that have plagued this state since the Hancok admendment! Carnahan was repairing and replacing these facilities! Rob
RobHunterJohnson 5 months ago
GRACE there is only one that is lost and hopeless! You seem to have a problem with the TRUTH! ROB
RobHunterJohnson 5 months ago
I Guess I am one of those Lost and Hopeless Catholics! Rob
JCLifer 5 months, 1 week ago
Uh, Rob, your Savior Jay Nixon has gutted the department of Mental Health by thousands of employees. DMH has taken the brunt of the cuts over the past four years.
RobHunterJohnson 5 months, 1 week ago
JC goes all the way back to BOND, The Republicans do not want to pay, it is all about I got mine you get yours, from the Tea Party types, and there happens to be a coulple complaining up above so they need responce! The Han cl ock admendment back in the early 90s hurt this state by far more than anything else! Nixon has cut, he has been forced to by a bunch of Republicans pushing the limit on Tea Party agenda. You have to pay for what you want, our charity and church are overwelmed, and the ones without insurance are the ones who generally don't get the help they need? 16 hours of mental health insurance is just like nothing, I am lucky to have a good plan, I even reviewed it this morning, so even those with insurace could, and can slip under the radar! GOD needs to be back in our schools for one, and needs to continue at OUR CAPITAL. Rob
RobHunterJohnson 5 months, 1 week ago
JC just think how SPENCE would handle budgets, Mr Business, all Business! Rob
MO4LIFE 5 months ago
If you people want god in schools then you have to let allah in the schools and any other religious deity that people want. Because of this country's freedom of religion. The schools are run by the state therefore god cannot be in the school. Separattion of church & state. Now all of you people that want god back in school. Pay the $8000 a year tuition and send your kids to a parchial school otherwise just get over it.
GRACEFUL ......Arm the teachers really? That has to be the dumbest thing i ever heard I guess if there is a church shooting you are going to want to arm the priests too/ I for one do not want my child in a classroom where the teacher has any type of firearm. You station a police officer that is armed at the entrances to the school not in the classroom.
I pray for the Assault Weapons Ban to be re-instated so that no clip or magazine may hold more than 10 bullets period.
RobHunterJohnson 5 months ago
Do Muslims believe in the 10 commandments, or the pledge of allegiance? Rob
Littleinvestor 5 months ago
The one muslim family I know have kids that say the Pledge of Allegiance at school and I assume Dad does as he is a member of the U.S. Army, stationed at Ft. Wood. They have told me the Koran has rules scattered in it similar to the 10 commandments, but I don't know that first hand. They are good people. Not scary at all.
RobHunterJohnson 5 months ago
"Moral commandments, The qu'ran states that tablets were given to Moses, without quoting their contents explicitly..." wikipedia; I guess they have 10 as well, they are a little different on the verbage, but who am I to judge! Rob
jcguy25 5 months ago
You are correct Grace in that they are OUR schools. We non-christians also pay the same taxes for those schools as you do. Why should YOUR religion be allowed in the school and not the others? There are American born Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, Atheist, etc. also paying the same school taxes. You or your religious beliefs are no better than anyone else's and therefore to allow one, would mean allowing them all.
JCLifer 5 months ago
Uh, because this is a Christian country, founded by and for Christians. Like it or leave. You have the freedom.
Listen and you might learn something.
jcguy25 5 months ago
Really? Founded by and For Christians? The First Amendment explicitly forbid the establishment of any official church or creed. You are wrong, this country was not founded for Christians. Like it or leave. You also have the freedom. Read the constitution and you might learn something.
Paroquet 5 months ago
Uh, Lifer? No it wasn't. In fact a lot of our founding fathers argued very much against the establishment of any religion, and of course, there's the Treaty of Tripoli, in case you missed the Presidential Bulletin from very early in our Republic: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."--John Adams, Founding Father & President of the United States, unanamously passed by Congress, established as the Law of the Land, 10-Jun-1797. Thomas Paine is another Founder who comes immediately to mind.
Get you're nose out of the Bible and read-up on your history. Then you can quote both together with relative peace of mind whereas presently you cannot.
RobHunterJohnson 5 months ago
Grace, did you go to public school? Rob
MO4LIFE 5 months ago
U need to do some research and see the quote above!!!
TickledPink 5 months ago
Where do you find these so called "facts"? They don't exist. Religious nuts are shown time and time again with words from our own founding fathers that this country was NOT founded on Christianity, our government is NOT based on the Christian religion and yet you say we don't accept facts. We are a secular nation, of and for the people, not the bible. Our democracy keeps your sect of voters in check for the most part because the non-Christians also have a say in our government.
Paroquet 5 months ago
No Graceful. We have a problem because you cannot accept the facts as they are. The original document I cited is unchanged and remains in effect. Among our system of government, this is called a "precedent" by the Judiciary. Furthermore, if you look into the writings of many founding fathers, religion was deliberately kept out on the grounds that they did not want our Republic to devolve into a theocracy. Not that the government would be abused by any one doctrine, but by any single religion period.
There is no revisionist history, and the only truth I perceive along the lines of your argument is that it is those like yourself who are suspended solids rather than part of the solution. You and yours with your prejudices and fomenting of divisiveness have done very little to help, and have demonstrated you could only be relied upon to do worse if you garnered total control. That's why I came up with the term "Christian Taliban" because you're no different in principle--you would legislate religious rule according to your own interpretation.
RobHunterJohnson 5 months ago
I will agree with you on Christianity, but I don't blend all my politics with it. If you think those politicians have you in mind in their decision process; they don't! The Republicans are not call Conservative for nothing, that means cutting Budgets on the most simplest of programs like Mental Health, Education, and Prisons! My statement stand Grace . Rob
Paroquet 5 months ago
Graceful, I respectfully disagree with your opinion. On your statement of fact, that "the right" of one's choice of religion has been stolen, you are incorrect; the right has been protected for many of us who share common values with your own, but have a different belief.
See, it's not the religion with which most have a problem. It's the doctrines associated with churches. Mine, for example, doesn't preach hate, intolerance, or infringements on personal matters. Yours publicly embraces and even encourages hate and intolerance.
We also don't see our belief as being better for everyone or better than any other, that everyone should have the right to find their own belief and choose where to place their own faith. You as a person, but speaking as a Christian and thereby for it as a whole, do not. You see us as an offense and know nothing of us, which is prejudice, and you promote it.
Christian principles aren't excluded from the public arena. You see it every election, or have to my memory. It's like Christians take every opportunity it gets to jam a thumb in the eye of anyone who is not lockstep with whatever they determine their values and morals should be--and even all of Christendom cannot agree upon those.
Also, I believe your statement that Christianity is better than any other religion falls under the Deadly Seven, namely that of pride. Your demonization of others than yourself is right in there too, with wrath.
JCLifer 5 months ago
Do you think if your law was in place that it would have prevented the shootings in CT?
MO4LIFE 5 months ago
Not Necessarily but we didn't have any mass school shootings when the ban was in place previously!!!.
connor 5 months ago
Total BS Columbine happened during the Clinton Assault Weapons ban time. April 20, 1999.
Get your facts straight.
RobHunterJohnson 5 months ago
A young lady bought those weapons for those kids at Columbine! Rob
connor 5 months ago
And an old lady bought the weapons used in Conn. Your point?
Sequoia 5 months ago
The salient point to me is that the mother was killed by her own son, with her own guns. Her own preparation for the worst invited the worst into her home.
This is in line with the fact that, statistically, a gun in the home will most likely kill a person who lives in that home.
Semi-automatic, military-style assault weapons, designed for the sole purpose of killing large numbers of people as quickly as possible, were left unlocked, or at least accessible to a disturbed young male. This is negligence of the highest order.
These weapons are designed for mass killings. As you creationists might agree, design foreshadows destiny. Weapons designed to kill many people WILL BE USED FOR THAT PURPOSE. In their own way, those guns BEG to the shooter to use them.
Why we allow private companies to sell products designed for this purpose is beyond me, testament to the power of the NRA lobby. We'll never get rid of all these weapons. It's insane.
As for what the legislature should do, I think a law might be in order that makes a person legally liable for any murder committed with a semi-auto to which their name is registered. If you own the semi-auto used to commit murder, you are guilty of murder. That might impress upon people the importance of keeping your guns under your control.
By law, all semi-autos should be under lock and key and accessible only by approved individuals. These are military style weapons. They need military-style regulation.
JCLifer 5 months ago
Guns "beg shooters to use them" to kill other people? Does your lawn mower "beg" you to mow the grass? Does your silverware "beg" to feed you? Does your toilet "beg" you to cr*p in it?
Are you saying it was the GUN'S FAULT (not the shooter's) that these kids were killed? Maybe we should feel sorry for the poor shooter beacuse the gun made him load, aim, and pull the trigger over and over and over?
Dude- you got serious issues if you think inanimate objects are begging you to use them. I hope you don't have any guns, knives, box cutters, fertilizer, automobiles, ball bats, or anything else that might be talking to you. Maybe it is time to lay off the LSD a few days?
Paroquet 5 months ago
Sequoia,
You okay with making the Mfrs. of planes, trains, ships, and automobiles liable too? For what other deaths perpetrated by machinery shall we hold the makers or, manufactures of any part thereof, responsible? What about a death caused by a stolen or borrowed car, or borrowed money (say it was spent on drugs or used to facilitate a killing unbeknown to the lender)?
How about giving birth to someone who later commits murder? You are responsible for them, especially minors.
There are ~310 Million non-military firearms at large in the US. Nearly 50% of respondents to a poll admitted to there being at least one firearm in the home. Among homicides of ~16K total, firearms counted for ~11K deaths in 2009. For the same year there were ~35K vehicular deaths. ~25K died from accidental falls, ~32K fatalities from unintentional poisoning, ~4K accidentally drowned. Basic math: 122K total deaths by the factors described by causes above; 9.01% of these unintentional deaths as homicide by firearm. There's a whole bevvy of other kinds of misadventures where people got killed because of someone else or something else outside of hereditary, genetic, or acquired disease/disorder.
Would you like some sugar with your cuppa perspective?
Sequoia 5 months ago
Planes, trains, ships and automobiles are not DESIGNED to kill large numbers of people in a short period of time.
Semi-automatic weapons are. That is what they are FOR.
Tools are meant to be used. That's what I mean by "beg." You can't look at a semi-auto and not think of killing large numbers of people. That is why that particular object exists.
Don't try to get all slippery slope on me. You know good and well the difference between a car and a semiautomatic weapon.
Don't be a fool.
Sequoia 5 months ago
And, yes, looking at my lawn mower when I need to cut the grass reminds me that I need to cut the grass.
Sequoia 5 months ago
And, please, I'm not trying to absolve the shooter of blame. You know that's not what I'm saying. This is how you try to shut down a debate about gun control, by saying that people who favor the strict regulation of military-style equipment are just trying to blame someone else.
I'm not saying the shooter isn't to blame. I'm saying there is lots of blame to go around.
connor 5 months ago
Do all the law enforcement and military personnel that train with these types of weapons dream of killing large numbers of people?
Some do. I have over heard many a person in an authority position hope for some sort of altercation that allows them to use force and violence, usually against those who cannot respond in kind. Which is exactly why I will never give up my firearms, support any type of gun control and even feel any restriction in place are non-Constitutional.
You will truly know your masters heart when you give him complete control over you and I do not wish to allow any earthling to have complete control over me.
Sequoia 5 months ago
Are you kidding? The law enforcement and military officers that carry those weapons SPECIFICALLY TRAIN TO KILL PEOPLE WITH THEM.
I wasn't mocking creationists. I'm a bit of a creationist myself, in a way.
When I speak of foolishness, I speak of the argument that regultion of sophisticated weapons is the same as regulation of cars. That kind of argument in this situation is indeed foolish. If my use of that terms shuts that down, then my words are working exactly as I designed them to.
Which is what we're talking about here, isn't it?
online_editor 5 months ago
My wish for Christmas is that the types of ad hominem that Graceful cited as methods of shutting down debate, as well as this one: "To know the reasons this country is lost and is hopeless read the above post. There is absolutely no indication that the author has any idea what the real problem is. That is America today" will decrease on these forums in favor of increased expression of how the writer views the issues being discussed. Thank you to all those who routinely contribute to that effort. --Rick Brown, online editor, News Tribune
connor 5 months ago
Another way to shut down debate is to hire a biased moderator.
My wish for Christmas is for truly fair handed moderation.
Think I will get it?
online_editor 5 months ago
Moderators make judgment calls. People who criticize moderators make judgment calls. If the people who criticize moderators were the moderators, they'd make judgment calls which others would criticize. No one's judgment calls are perfect, least of all mine. A few participants sometimes want to use the anonymity we extend in this forum to get snarky and nasty with other participants, and a few others drift into that mode once in awhile, but we at the NT don't want our forum to become filled with that. It tends to discourage new people from contributing. As Graceful alluded to, it's almost a way to silence other ideas by conveying a condescending attitude. We want folks to focus on the issues and their ideas, not lambasting another participant. There's no perfect way to accomplish that and there always will be gray areas when judging whether a post crosses the line or not. We try to encourage each participant not to worry about what anyone else is doing but to take the high road for oneself. Treat this as a platform to get your views out, not a boxing ring.
jcguy25 4 months, 4 weeks ago
But you have been biased towards certain posters. I have made posts that Graceful's "comments" were sometimes nasty and seething with hate of anyone that doesn't agree with her, and those get removed. Yet she can actually single me out personally as "part of the problem" and that post remained.
online_editor 4 months, 4 weeks ago
Sometimes I look back and think, oh, why didn't I do this another way or draw the line over here. I also think if we don't at least try to discourage personal attacks, it will get out of hand eventually. Maybe I should let it go on for a few posts more often to let everyone see how far it can go off the rails, then ask for cooperation and delete after that. I have removed comments from various participants over time, but it can be difficult making judgment calls about whether something is general political dogma or a personal insult. Sometimes it only becomes problematic if someone else reacts to it by escalating with additional bickering. If they dismiss it as irrelevant, they've self-corrected a potential problem. For the record, I think most of our participants try their best to keep it fairly close to civil, and it produces interesting reading. I'm thankful we get the insights of so many people, rather than being exposed only to the information in the articles being commented upon.
connor 4 months, 4 weeks ago
Sorry but your enforcement of the rules vary greatly as does your tolerance for what is a personal attack, favoring the Liberal conglomerate posters quite noticeably.
The other day I witnessed a standard personal attack flame towards a new Conservative commenter. That commenter replied back and I posted a simple "way to go post" agreeing with them and you deleted it while allowing the original attack comment to stay and his reply. BIASED to the EXTREME since you have no issue with the Liberal Conglomerate posters ganging up on the Conservative ones at every opportunity.
You also have enforced the "Bulletin point" rule a time or two on the Conservatives but seem to have no problem with allowing certain Liberal posters to do it time after time, over and over again. We won't even get into the off topic comments that were A-O-K for the Liberal posters during the election but a major sin for the Conservatives in your eyes apparently.
You say you want more people to comment? It is obvious from the election results this part of the country is extremely Conservative yet as a whole Conservatives comment much less on these forums than screaming Liberals and your Bias towards allowing the Liberals to skate by while enforcing the rules on the Conservatives is a major reason why most Conservatives do not bother and this forum does not keep new commenters.
Escalation is not what makes the comments problematic it is your calls on the matter and allowing a certain few who scream louder than the rest dictate your actions.
online_editor 4 months, 4 weeks ago
I'm probably going to have to agree to disagree with Connor, except for the point that moderators' judgment calls aren't perfect. Thanks everyone for the feedback. And of course, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to each of you and yours. --Rick Brown, online editor, rbrown@newstribune.com
sancho 4 months, 4 weeks ago
Rick, have a wonderful Christmas.
JCLifer 4 months, 4 weeks ago
Some folks are unable to discern between a comment negative toward an idea or a political figure and a personal attack. Some folks think that any comment with a different belief is a personal attack against them and then they start crying like a little schoolgirl or they start attacking the first poster and calling names.
Jeez- it is just an opinion forum on the world wide web
Paroquet 5 months ago
Sequoia:--
Hmm. That actually doesn't cross my mind when handling any kind of firearm. Own many. Never had to shoot one at a person, never had a firearm beg me to shoot people either. Conversely, when I enter a room I take stock of what can be used as a weapon, improvised or otherwise, and means of cover, distraction and egress. It's not that I go places where that's necessary. It's just a hobby that disturbs people who don't think about their safety.
Semiautos are for firing an additional shot in less time it takes to load. Shooter picks the target & when to fire, last I checked. Although I would like a look at Dick Cheyney's gun...
I don't need to get slippery with you. You've already lost your footing. I'm going to guess that you don't hunt and weren't around firearms much as a kid, or shot in a league, am I right?
Sequoia 5 months ago
So, shooting a person never crosses your mind when handling a firearm? Why do you have them, then? It sounds like you think a lot about using weapons of all kinds against people.
But again, I'm not talking about "firearms." I'm talking about semi-autos and military equipment.
What does my hunting experience have to do with anything? I'm sure you're much more macho than me, but that's beside the point. I'm talking about semi-automatic weapons, large clips, hollow-point bullets, military-style equipment. Nothing to do with hunting... everything to do with shooting people. Again, you know I'm not trying to absolve the shooter of responsibility. I'm not some limp-wrist lib who hates guns, and it is disingenuous of you to try to conflate my point about semi-autos with hunting and target shooting. That's the NRA tactic... any discussion of semi-autos is the same as prying grandpa's hunting rifle out of his cold, dead hands and whatnot. Please. Let's get real.
My point isn't about guns broadly. It is about how a disturbed young man was able to get his hands on someone else's military equipment.
Don't try to conflate hunting and target shooting with my point about stricter regulation of military-style equipment. That's two different things. Don't try to paint me as some anti-hunter. You can hunt, shoot, whatever you like. But, you should not be able to own military equipment at all, in my view, or at least not without the strictest regulation.
For all the people who want to cast themselves as "responsible gun owners," these so-called responsible gun owners never stand up and say that something is wrong with unrestricted access to military equipment.
I'm waiting for responsible gun owners to take some responsibility.
connor 5 months ago
So far no real motive has been put forward for this terrible act. The type of weapon used for this type of attack means nothing really as the maniac in China recently proved Someone on a killing spree among the lambs can kill just as many with a knife as with a semi-auto firearm. Someone who wants to kill will kill but when someone kills and then ends his own life afterwards there is usually a bit more to the story.
Figure out why these young men go on a rampage and almost always target the schools and you can get to the root of the problem.
Oppressive feminism especially in our education system creates these issues and we are seeing the repercussions of decades of Feminist/Liberal ideology at work.
jcguy25 5 months ago
Oppressive feminism? Seriously? That's as lame as Grace's religion argument. The shooter was home schooled before this happened. He had mental issues which were causing problems between himself and his mother. Has nothing to do with oppressive feminism.
JCLifer 5 months ago
What mental issues are you talking about? I have not heard this reported, but several here have indicated mental illness was a factor. What have you heard?
connor 5 months ago
Open your eyes. The kid was removed from school because the school wished to treat him in some way his mother didn't agree with although to date no incident has been reported that would prompt such a measure. That tells me his only "crime" back then was being male. He went to a school and despite how the media wishes to present it as him shooting children judging by the numbers of casualties and the type he was going after administrators and teachers foremost with no concern for who else got hit. He killed 18 people in the school not counting himself 30% of the casualties were staff.
Several reports have him heading for the second class room when he heard the sirens and killed himself which means he left the first classroom before all the children were shot. Read what the actions show. They show he was targeting teachers and administrators with extreme prejudice and no care for collateral damage but when the target was removed he stopped firing.
This guy was after educators plain and simple.
RobHunterJohnson 5 months ago
Better check the time line Conner? Beg to differ, the Teachers placed themselves in between the mental case shooter, and those children! He killed all in room 1, and killed all but 7 in room 2! This guy was nuts plain and simple! Rob
MO4LIFE 5 months ago
It means everything if he had a revolver 6 shots and its over someone tackles him and beats him til police come. Semi auto you have to hide and wait and wait like an animal waitng to be killed.... Big difference and the rest of you seem to be the type that go deer hunting with semi-auto.... that is not hunting that is massacring. Some people just dont have common sense anymore its not the same you all harp on the change in society and what the constitution means and doesn't mean but they did not have nor have a clue that there would be guns that can fire 100 rounds a minute when they gave the right to bear arms. But you cherrypick what you want to keep and what should apply and what shouldn't. Strict gun laws in Europe do you know how many murders they had by gunfire last year for the WHOLE YEAR 30-40 we thousands per yr in USA. Gun Control does work.....
They have the technology now that if you buy a gun your fingerprint is programmed in the trigger and if your finger isn't on the trigger it cannot be fired. You want to keep your guns and keep people safe. There is your answer. But i am sure you will find something to say thats not fair. Nobody cares about gun violence unless it hits white america. Chicago has had over 200 murders this year but u don't hear about it unless white folks get shot and then the whole country is up in arms but you never hear about the names of the people that die in the hood at any time 3 weeks ago 15 people murdered in chicago in "the Hood" and nothing was said on national news about that. and they were all under 18 but its just the little poor hood black people so who cares.. Black man got shot and killed here in JC no outrage at all but when the white lady got killed in holts summit there were people all ove these forums with a whole lot to say. It just goes to show that in this country Either they don't know, don't care, or just don't show what is going on in the hoods of this country. Now lets see all of the racism accusations and all of the "nobody cares they are thugs anyway" comments. But when all is said and done the truth hurts and you people cannot stand anything that has truth in it.
Rbreb13 5 months ago
Amazing that you mention Chicago. Illinois has some of the most oppresive gun control laws in the Country. Also some of the highest gun violence rates in the country. hmm..............
MO4LIFE 5 months ago
Had those laws!!!! SCOTUS overturned those laws banning firearms in the city of Chicago a year or two ago as unconstitutional.
John 5 months ago
Actually it has only been 1 MONTH since SCOTUS issued their opinion on the total gun ban in Chicago. They (Chicago lawmakers) still have not issued new requirements.
JCLifer 5 months ago
Would you have been happier if he used a chainsaw? I suspect it would be quite easy to kill twice as many kids with a chainsaw in the same amount of time as he took with his rifle.
Chain saws are readily available at hardware, sears, farm and home, etc. stores. They don't cost much either.
Guess we need to ban chain saws because they beg to be used to kill too.
RobHunterJohnson 5 months ago
Mo I do care, that young black man that was killed at Broadway, and Dunklin; Over a girl at a night club? The white couple who were killed on West High street over life choices? Both these places were very close to me at some point in my life! The Gun did not do the killing, someone made a poor choice. A Mother at Sandy Hook, a girlfriend at Columbine, they enabled these men? I don't mind filling out a sheet for the Goverment to purchase a weapon. I do not believe they throw the information away after the sale, I once swapped a VW Bug for a SW pistol back in the 80s, and the individual made me get a Sheriffs Permit from the county I live in, which is Cole, since the new law replaced Missouries, purchasing a weapon has become kind of impersonal! I think the sheriff knowing kinda gave him a grasp on his turf! The exisiting Gun Laws need to be enforced in this State, and Country. You commit a crime with a gun, you go to jail? The principle is not to hard to understand, except for the money part? No one wishes to fund the programs to keep them in jail, only the worst ones - the killers get to stay for a good long while? I have worked in some of those places that I would call the "hood" KCK, N St Louis, Paseo-Troost, I was truly scared at Paseo, and 31st; they wanted my car, I am glad they changed their mind! Rob
John 5 months ago
Rob: The law regarding purchasing a firearm has NOT changed since the Fed Firearm Act of 1968. If you purchase from a dealer or gunshiop you MUST get a permit to purchase. If you purchase from an individual, no purchase permit required (long gun or a sidearm). If you purchase a long gun from a dealer or gun shop, no permit required.
RobHunterJohnson 5 months ago
John where do you live, in jefferson city you fill out a form and when you are approved in a min or 3 day wait, then you are allowed a purchase of a long gun single shot, or semi automatic starting back in the middle 90s? Rob
John 5 months ago
Rob: The law is and has been since 1968: The purchase of a handgun (of any size, kind, caliber) from a dealer or gunshop (includes Walmarts and any business engaged in the sale of guns) is required to fill out a form, pay a fee, and be cleard for a permit to purchase, by the Sheriff's office.
The purchase of a long gun, af any caliber, style, or brand, does NOT require a permit to purchase. Instead you are required to sign a form indicating you are not a felon nor have you a histort of a vilence producing mental illness.
To purchase a gun of sany kind, size, brsnd (excepting a fully automatic weapon such as an assault rifle -- for those one must possess an FFL class III) there is no exchange of paper work or background check required. However, even in this type of sale it is stipulated that the seller may not sell to someone they know to be a felon, have violent intentions, nor who is mentally unstable or have a history of such.
RobHunterJohnson 5 months ago
John when is the last time you purchased a gun, you pay no fee no more, at the place of purchase they check your background instantly or up to 3 days, then it is yours? The sheriffs office was eliminated a dozen years ago for the purchase of pistols? Rob
connor 5 months ago
but u don't hear about it unless white folks get shot and then the whole country is up in arms
Really? Tell that to George Zimmerman I am sure he would have some issue with your race baiting accusations.
As for your obviously misinformed rant about firearms there are several viable uses for semi-auto rifles including stock protection from predators and wild pig thinning outside of the purpose of God giving us the RIGHT TO OWN THEM.
Other than that recoil, target accusation and heat build up in the barrel will limit mass shooting pretty fast. In the situation of cowering children a sword would have worked as well as a semi-auto rifle.
JCLifer 5 months ago
Chainsaw...
MO4LIFE 5 months ago
God didn't give us the right to bear arms The constitution did and if you can quote me a scripture that god gave the right to bear arms I will apologize but the fact that guns didn't exist in Jerusalem in bible times you just sound like you need to se therapist about your mental state.
MO4LIFE 5 months ago
Viable maybe practical no!
newone 5 months ago
I have always been against gun control, I think people should have the right to own a gun and carry it if they choose but these military gun's that are used for combat that these people are getting and using in these horrible tragedies is going way beyond having the right to have a gun, I have no problem with someone carrying a normal hand gun but when automatic weapons are different and something needs to be done to stop these from getting on the street into these people’s hands, how many people have to die to get this country to wake up to the fact that going online or looking in a catalog and ordering an automatic weapon is getting easier and easier every day. I have been praying for the families of Newtown all weekend and I pray that we will wake up and realize that something has to be done!
JCLifer 5 months ago
Automatic weapons are already illegal. Very few folks are allowed to carry them.
How do automatic weapons have any relationsip to the CT shooting? Do you even know what an automatic weapon is?
newone 5 months ago
I know what an automatic weapon is and it is used a lot in these types of shootings, any gun that unloads 100 rounds in seconds is NOT a weapon that someone can buy at the drop of a hat which obviously they are readily available because it seems like these are the guns of choice for these crazy people who do these shootings.
John 5 months ago
You have completely lost it. I have not heard of anyone using a fully-automatic weapon in the U.S. . . . not true, there have been the off-encounters with reports of such, but less than 1 per every year or two. Reseach on your part would indicate to you that the BushMaster is a semi-automatic, small caliber, high power hunting/sporting rifle.
John 5 months ago
By the way: Most semi-automatic weapons will not allow you to fire them 100 times in a few seconds. The heat from such abuse will cause a jam in most weapons even a quality weapon. The human finger movement will not allow most people to ifre a weapon anywear near that often. Yes, it COULD be done with lots and lots of practive, but, you sacrifice ccuracy when doing such a thing.
MO4LIFE 5 months ago
Limit clips to holding 10 bullets and call it a day.!!!!! The only difference between semi and fully is in a semi you have to pull the trigger for each round but it doesnt' matter if you can squeez the trigger 100 times in a minute you will shoot 100 rounds in a minute. which in my opinion is just as bad as a fully automatic. You people are splitting hairs only care about whats in it for you but not for society. Newone I agree with you.
JCLifer 5 months ago
Carry more clips.
How does this prevent the CT killings?
Liberals punishing the innocent.
Paroquet 5 months ago
If you fire 100 times in a minute, you won't net 100 hits on multiple targets. And we're not splitting hairs. By itself, the gun did nothing. Some say it may have been enabling. Alrighty then. If one takes it into their mind to engage in mayhem, no amount of restriction or regulation will prevent them doing so. Guns aren't the only mechanism for mass slaying. Some methods are far more subtle, likely more effective as well as having a means for avoiding detection and require neither age restriction or permitting.
Lifer, conservatives are all about authority and control, they'll play ball too for that reason alone. The more they can control, the more they seek to control. It was conservatives who got us secret courts and warrantless wiretaps, remember? Unquestionable authority, unquestionable control. Be a good little brownshirt and you've nothing to fear...
Regardless, the knee is still in the jerked position and will remain there for a couple more weeks.
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