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Today's Poll!Mo. ballot measures seek to increase minimum wage
Tuesday, November 8, 2011
JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. (AP) — Missouri voters could be asked next year to raise the state’s minimum wage to $8.25.
The secretary of state’s office on Tuesday approved the summaries on two initiative petitions, meaning proponents can begin collecting signatures to get the measures on the 2012 ballot.
Missouri’s minimum wage currently matches the federal requirement of $7.25 an hour.
The ballot measure would increase it by $1 starting in 2013 and allow it to continue rising with inflation. It also would require that workers who earn tips be paid at least 60 percent of the minimum wage instead of the current 50 percent.
Missouri voters in 2006 approved a ballot measure increasing the state’s minimum wage.
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Comments
getwithit 1 year, 7 months ago
Did we vote on minimum wage a couple of years ago? If minimum wage goes up, prices with go up even more.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
maybe we aught to just let it be.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
and.....
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
Yes, we need much more proof. But then a reasonable minimum wage, child labor laws, safety standards, product liability, consumer protection, anti-fraud laws, etc. are all attacks on private property in your world. Do you get a cookie for saying minimum wage is evil?
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
Wage and safety are distinct, not separate. The conditions under which a person can be compelled to work are properly the role of government. We went through this over a hundred years ago, people are willing to work for nearly nothing, all day long, in dangerous conditions because they need to eat. You are saying that's not anybody's business but the owner's, who would also control every other aspect of the owner/labor arrangement given your take. How archaic and telling that you'd roll back these basic protections.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
Wish I knew how I arranged that, I'd sell it to other posters. Yes, the cookie comment was a bit snarky, but productive. We sell and eat more cookies today than any time in history, largely due to government subsidies of Ag products, oh, and that the middle class can afford them. I mis-construed nothing, you said wage and other worker protections are separate issues, and all an impediment to business, and I disagree, they're basically the same.
evenkeel 1 year, 7 months ago
The minimum wage is a barrier to entering the workforce and ought to be removed.
Of course, liberals will just go on a rant about those who want the minimum wage abolished also want other laws abolished like child labor laws, safety standards, product liability, consumer protection, anti-fraud... oh wait. Never mind. It is difficult to beat a liberal to a rant.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
The minimum wage is a barrier to nothing, there're plenty of entry level workers being paid less than the minimum, legally no less. Pointing out the worker protection, wage, safety, consumer protection etc. is anything but a rant. Whining about it on the other hand could be seen as such.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
You are wrong. A private business can have thousands of employees. It is exactly the government's business that an employer cannot exploit workers. It is exactly the government's concern that you not have to eat rat poo in your privately processed food. There are lower limits clearly defined for the size and nature of impacted businesses but ONLY the government, no church, no Chamber of Commerce, and certainly not the goodness of an owner's heart should be given the task of protecting workers and consumers.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
All of the above are valid points. Grace AND asb. Seems the big question is: where to draw the line?
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
That is precisely the question. $8.25? $8.50? Debate in the legislature and public forums, and come to a decision. I think it's time for a slight bump. Grace wants Dickens' England.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
You call me a communist and then whine about me calling your views Dickensian? How two-faced!
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Clarification: when I say 'where to draw the line', I am refering to government involvement. Specifically to the wage discussion, I question if govt aught to have a say. Getwithit points out the vicious circle of increasing costs and increasing prices. Maybe it wiser for govt to be involved with safety regulations and let the business owner set the wage - they know what they can pay and stay afloat. Of course, the question comes up again with safety regulations: where to draw the line. Just thinking 'out loud'. How does that sound?
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
The cost of labor, safety, quality control, and other protections are indeed passed on in the price. Would you remove those, any of them but wage? And why wage? It's the one cost that most directly impacts workers.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Good Questions! First is safety. If a person doesn't like the package - the job, the pay, the benefits, etc - work elsewhere. No other job available? Then it looks like accepting the job is the answer. Not enough $$ to live on? What lifestyle changes need to be made to make it sufficient? Pay doesn't cover the basic needs to live? Find a part time job to supplement the income. Maybe start a business - starting small first. Accept the low wage job until another better paying job comes along. Consider additional training - college, vocational, etc..- to expand the options. This is all I can come up with at this time. I am sure there are probably other ways to deal with the situation. Also, why is it necessary to increase the minimum wage at this time? We just did this a few years ago. What would be different with a different - higher - wage? What is the outcome - the goal - that people would like to see? Maybe there are other ways to address the problem - once it is accurately identified.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
Thanks for making my point.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
You mean the GOP is NOT the party that cares about the American working stiff while the lefty socialist destroyers of America (you know, the Democrats) have no heart and only want to press their evil agenda? How did I miss THAT!
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
Um, I didn't actually miss it Graceful. You're easier to lead than a trail nag. Can I quote you on "the party of reason?" I guess I should point out that the GOP is in the midst of its greatest lying binge ever; creating reality, hiding record profits of its prime backers, calling a sitting President names that would've been cause for libel and slander suits only a decade ago, saying no to policy that would actually help them just to mire congress in mud to blame on the evil Dems. An other wise competent party with a rich history of conservativism has been hijacked by extremists and you call the shrieking bellicose result reason? this is really fun.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
Bill Clinto balanced the federal budget, must've been a republican.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
What? My automatic Grace translator has failed.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
thanks, asb. I laugh everytime I scroll down and read this.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
and the flip side of that is the worker - if they don't like that wage can look for work elsewhere. There are many ways to view a situation.
JMO 1 year, 7 months ago
I find it interesting that the five states with no minimum wage law, TN, LA, MI, AL and SC, all rank among the 10 highest states with families below poverty level. (To be fair, SC appears on some lists I've found on line, but not all.) AR, with a below-fed minimum wage, ranks consistantly in the top 10 poverty levels
Strangely, Washington DC and NM, which also rank in the top 10 for poverty have a higher than federal minimum wage law, while MN, WY and GA, which have minimum wages lower than the federal wage, are not in the top (bottom?) 10.
Food for thought.
jeffcitygirl 1 year, 7 months ago
Excellent point, funny how no one had a response, when you post facts they can't argue! Just out of curiosity can you cite your sources for this info? I am doing a paper on this and would like to use this if possible! Thanks!!
JMO 1 year, 7 months ago
There was more on this further down the thread. I just googled US census data. I think it would be a really interesting study. Good luck on the paper.
JCLifer 1 year, 7 months ago
I'm with Graceful on this one. Get the governmental meddling out of this. Wages are something negotiated between the worker and the employer. Let supply and demand / Free Enterprise work.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
If the only negotiators are the owners and the workers, guess who has all the marbles? The company town, indentured servitude, direct military-style oppression of dissent. . . boy those were the days eh? Government involvement in labor relations has prevented open warfare and is a public responsibility. You might notice that even with all these lefty protections, the minute money gets tight the workers suffer first and most.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
I'll go with "Provide for the general welfare" bits of the constitution, along with 2,000 years of western law and philosophy on whether the government should prevent exploitation and consumer fraud.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
And only the wacko Right would equate worker and consumer protection with your hated definition of socialism. Minimum wage, basic safety, fraud protection, product controls, all are good things.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Gotta tell ya, hkchas - this is the most coherent, logical comment I have read from you....and I am factoring in the sarcasm......seriously. Just humor me and follow through with the rest of the thought. It seems as though there is an 'and' there and nothing after it. Do tell, how are you countering what Grace has said? Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS work the system in another way - rightly or wrongly - they RECEIVE TAX MONEY......sanctioned by our government - you know just like those that 'took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts'. Again - rightly or wrongly - these bailouts were FROM the government. So now, lets look at what taxpayers are getting for their money.....from the bailout recipients AND planned parenthood, NPR, and PBS. Then lets ask the hard question: is this the role of government?
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
It IS the role of government. NPR and PBS provide news, entertainment, education, and even commentary; free of corporate, government, church, political and hidden influences. These productions, internationally recognized for their quality and objectivity, would never generate enough advertising profit to be produced by corporate media. The Right claims that NPR/PBS are left wing propoganda outlets, but only FOX claims this as fact, but it isn't fact. Objectivity is the hallmark of PBS/NPR and their examination of ALL sides of important issues irks the controlled hate and fear based right wing radio and Fox. Planned parenthood gets more money from private donors than federal, and the Right's hatred of it is based on a religious issue, abortion, that PP never provides. These are vital, good uses of tax money that Fox/Rush/Beck paint as evil.
wcywing 1 year, 7 months ago
gov should leave people alone. people should leave other people alone, as long as they are not hurting anyone. left and right wingers are dangerous, i dare say they are almost the same. right wingers want to control social behavior, lefties want to control how we make our money, i choose none of the above.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
this is an interesting perspective. I think i may understand why you say this. I really like the first couple of statements. So, given this, what about the statement asb makes about NPR and PBS and their excellent programming. I do enjoy these programs. Can they only be created with government money and found in government funding tv/radio stations?
wcywing 1 year, 7 months ago
i am quite sure if NPR and PBS will go private it will do well. big corporations like monsanto sponsored programs on pbs, ironic yes?
gov should do what the normal citazens can not do. defend us from enemy attacks, keep the peace, natural disasters. there are too many laws, not even the fed knows how many there are. the ABA thinks there are over 10,000. of course there are more being made all the time, and it does not matter who is in congress or the senate. the gov should fear the people, not the people fear the gov. btw we are not a democracy, we are a republic.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
...and where would you draw the line with government? How do you define the role of government?
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
I am somewhat surprised to hear this - yet glad to know your line of thinking. Sounds like you think govt aught to be involved in alot of things. Where is the line for you? Maybe its easier to answer what aught government not do?
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
Government has always been involved in lots of things. I don't have lists or lines drawn. Mostly I see government's role as our primary provider of unprofitable service and as protector of every one of us, rich and poor. But primarily as enforcer of democratically agreed on balances between our incredibly varied interessts, through politics. Politics without government is just rule by might, and we've walked a long way since that was defensible. We're on the verge of walking away from rule by cash but the goal is a long long way down the road. And just to contradict myself a bit, might and money DO have legitimate roles in politics, they're as natural as skin and only need some coverage and style to become civilized.
JMO 1 year, 7 months ago
True, PP provides abortion. However they don't spend the federal money on that particular service. Evil? That's a matter of opinion that doesn't bear on this particular issue. What you see as evil many people see as providing valuable services to low income women and families.
As to NPR/PBS...all I can say is, Wow. Paranoid much? Those Inspector Lynley and Ms. Marple mysteries I see on PBS all the time are surely a left-wing plot against country, just like Nova and Antiques Roadshow!
Wait! Don't they show Barney on PBS? Now that's evil!
Sequoia 1 year, 7 months ago
Do you realize that Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations explained that in a perfect capitalist system, wages go to subsistence level? Meaning that, if wages are strictly left to the free market, workers get paid only enough to keep them alive. There is no such thing as a "middle class" in a perfectly capitalistic system. Is this really the kind of country we want?
Adam Smith did not actually favor perfect capitalism. Perfect capitalism was tried in England. If you want to see what that looks like, read your Charles Dickens. Perfect capitalism is not the utopia that some people think it is. Conservatives, by the way, are not supposed to believe in utopias.
This is why all the successful western democracies have an economic system with capitalism as the engine, and government as the steering wheel, so to speak.
I wonder if working-class people who rant about socialism and the free market actually understand the consequences of the radical ideas they so casually toss around. Unless the commenters on here are real big money players (in which case, we're in more trouble than we thought!), then some people are actually arguing against their own economic interests.
For the vast majority of us, an economic system that is balanced between free enterprise and government regulation works best (which, again, is why there are no examples of perfect capitalism in the world today).
Yes, capitalism is the best engine for growth, innovation and human development. But a real conservative will remember that the free market, like any other human endeavor, is not (and can never be) perfect.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Excellent points! So, where would you draw the line between the two?
Sequoia 1 year, 7 months ago
@ Petunia, I don't draw a line between government and the free market. They depend on one another. The markets need order: rule of law, enforceable contracts, etc. Corporations are created by state legislature to limit liability and promote investment and risk-taking. Government busts monopolies that limit free entry into the market, which is another assumption of a well-functioning free market. Again, the analogy I like is that capitalism is the engine, government is the brakes, gas pedal and steering wheel.
@ evenkeel: As for utopias, a lot of the rhetoric I heard at the most recent Republican debates is a version of the line "government is the problem." And the answer to most questions is "get the government off our backs." Maybe that's not utopian, but is simplistic and one-dimensional. I find the "government vs. market" debate to be a false choice.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
Very well laid out Sequoia. One of the hard truths about the very present we're in is that there is a powerful corporate viewpoint pushing for those subsistance wages of Smith's model, and for the moment have built a relentless media delivery system for that message. Some on the left say that's shooting their corporate selves in the foot, taking away the consumer middle class; without realizing that subsistance takes a LOT of consumption and subsistance wages reduce labor costs more than enough to offset middle-class spending losses. I also don't think it's a balance between capitalism and government regulation - you'd have some regulation anyway. I think it's more a balance between market forces and social forces. That balance is almost the entire conversation between left and right. As our society gets more complex due to its social and philosophical evolution and technology, it drifts to the left to manage increasingly complex social issues. This is a 5,000 year trend with very few backslides. The Right has a legitimate role in preventing the drift becoming a soviet-style stampede, but their real foot shooting lies in their message of hate for government's role in social involvement and mediation of our various interests. Without a strong, central, democratic government, we are utterly doomed.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Is it 'hate for government's role' or 'proponent of limited government role'?
It sounds like what you identify as the errors - 'foot shooting' - are the same as the 'legitimate role in preventing...' and actually, its interesting that you describe this as the Right as responding to the Left. It's really all about a balance. I do agree with the statement about 'it drifts to the left'. I also see this changing. As I see it, 'it drifts to the left' is a thing of the past. we are at a pivot point. There are other ways for things to be accomplished in this society without turning to government. The government and the market cannot exist without people. Human beings. It is the good caring people of this country that will pave the way through this muck. These good caring people are not called entrapeneurs. Nor are they called legislators or politicians - tough some may be politicians and/or entrapeneurs. The people I am talking about are the everyday people we see in our grocery stores, churches, walking on the sidewalk. These are the great develppers of society.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
I hope I haven't given the impression that I think government is THE answer. I intend only to point out its important role, and yes, the push to reign it in, constantly, is valid. But, I hear true hate in the Right's daily media narrative. As far as our drift to the left being over, I don't think our time in history is all that special. As we grow, physically and in complexity, a larger economy, social structure, government, and spirit have to also occur. And be sure you understand that what doesn't grow, dies, without exception.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Is it 'given the impression' or a matter of interpretation? 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Important thing: discussion with clarification
I find the last statement in this post: 'what doesn't grow, dies, without exception.' interesting. I often hear people talk about growing/growth. Yes, many things 'grow' and we measure the growth in inches, pounds, dollars and cents. When talking about the economy or society, cities and other institutions, it just seems odd that its grow or die. Maybe these things evolve. I actually think - at this point in time - the dicotomy line of thinking is the problem. Sure, we must look at numbers, statistics to determine the market, intellect, etc...is 'growing'. Yes, statistics can be helpful. Yet, if they are the driving force for living and breathing - 'what doesn't grow, dies, without exception' - is the outcome. There are so many possibilities - ways to see things and accomplish things. Seems we really limit ourselves. So, given this discussion began with the minimum wage ballot issue - maybe 'we the people' see the blunder of increasing minimum wage - already did that - and vote no. Gotta do different to get different results. Grace has identified 'politics' as the reason for some to petition for an increase in minimum wages. What are other possible goals/desired outcomes? What is the real reason? Gotta identify the problem accurately to solve it.
JMO 1 year, 7 months ago
I can't wait for that OWS sign that says, "Please Sir, may I have some more?" :)
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
Good one. It's actually a very common OWS sign and a very popular bumper sticker, along with "but I don't LIKE cake!"
JMO 1 year, 7 months ago
Well shoot, there goes my copyright.
evenkeel 1 year, 7 months ago
Correlation does not imply causation JMO.
Since the 1980s Americans have been getting fatter while the earth's climate has been warming. Fat people are warming the planet. See?
Here's another one: Since 2008 the Federal deficit have spiked precipitously. President Obama was inaugurated into office in 2008. President Obama has caused the Federal deficit to balloon. Oh wait, ...ahhh ...ahem... well...sometimes you can logically infer causation from correlation.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
lol
JMO 1 year, 7 months ago
I admit evenkeel, your post is pretty funny, but I still think it's interesting that all 5 of the states with no minimum wage are in the 10 (out of 51 "states" with DC included) that have the highest poverty rates.
I've done a little more looking and, to be fair, only a couple of the 19 states with higher minimum wage laws than the fed fall into the 10 states with the lowest poverty rates. So, while I doubt the wages paid are the whole reason for poverty levels, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a contributing factor.
There's a lot more to consider, but like I said, I think it's interesting, that's all. I'd love to a graph with all 51 listed by both poverty level and min wage paid and see how it looks...but that's more work than I intend to put into it right now.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
I wonder what other factors come into play? I am sure you are aware of Missouri being identified as 48th or 49th on the list of state employee pay. An important piece of that picture - from my perspective - is how much buying power the $ has in various areas. Missouri has a low cost of living and it seeems reasonable for wages to be 'lower' here - in general terms. NYC, as an example, is much much higher and the $ buys far less there. I remeber when I moved to Missouri and thinking how inexpensive things are here. Of coucrse, there are regional differences in an area too - ie the difference between ST. Louis and JC.. It would be nice if it was as easy as 2+2=4......or so it seems....
JMO 1 year, 7 months ago
Oh I'm sure unemployment rates for sure are a part of the poverty problem. And is it clear that my list was ranked by % of population under the federal poverty level? Actually, MO used to be 49th on state employee pay - beating WV by a couple hundred bucks a year on average, but we're now 50th. (DC isn't included in that one, just states.) The one that surprised me really was DC. The minimum wage there is higher than the federal min wage, yet it's almost got the highest poverty level in the country. And it's darned expensive to live in DC!
JCLifer 1 year, 7 months ago
Raise the minimum wage some more and watch millions more jobs go overseas or to Mexico. The USA is becoming less and less competitive with other countries as it is.
If you don't like low-wage jobs, get off your duff and get some education and technical skills.
evenkeel 1 year, 7 months ago
Sequoia, nice strawman argument. Are conservatives trying to attain utopia? Hmmm. Not any conservatives that I know of. So you think we will come closer to attaining utopia by ceding more control of the economy to the government? I'll let you know how that works right now: lousily. How'd that Solyndra deal work out? How about the Community Reinvestment Act? How about college tuition? As government support and control has increased, the cost of a college education climbs and climbs, much faster than inflation.
Using Charles Dickens England as an example to make your point is a poor one. For one, the United States has never suffered from the social stratification that characterizes English society. Conservatives encourage and celebrate class mobility. Herman Cain, Steve Jobs and myself are all fine examples of class mobility.
Nice line: "A real conservative will remember ..." I know some real conservatives and they would not make a case like you just tried to do.
Do some research (stay away from the Charles Dickens novels for awhile) and you can find well-researched articles that make a convincing case that the minimum wage is a barrier to entry into the job market. This hurts the young and the unskilled. It also is an impediment to class mobility because getting the first job is vital to moving up in the work force. The first job is the training ground for developing job skills, like showing up on time ready to work, following directions and developing initiative.
(Now I will use a favorite liberal tactic with my conservative tongue in cheek:) Why do you want to hurt the young and the unskilled?
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
The young and unskilled find ample work below minimum wage. Sequoia didn't say conservatives wanted a utopia, but clearly said they didn't. Yes, Dickens' writing is fiction describing an exaggerated social brutality, but that stratification is happening in the US today at a far faster rate than during the heart of the English Industrial Revolution. Conservatives claim the left wants to "re-distribute wealth," while doing so to their benefit at historic rates. There were some mistakes made by Bush and Obama efforts to level out the bottom of the recession, but the biggest was actually not putting enough capital into circulation. That wimpiness will extend the recovery already underway, and hurt Obama's legacy and the corporate bottom line.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Whoa! '...not putting enough capital into circulation' is actually the mindset that has largely contributed to the recovery extension. The sad thing, we really have nothing to show for that $$. Sad and true. What will benefit the economy and this country as a whole is developing a strong foundation from which the economy/market operates. Government's hand in this is the biggest obstacle and we will benefit ONLY when the foundation is laid. Government out! At the very least, let it be.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Poverty. What is defined as poverty? Grace is right - I question if Americans REALLY know what poverty is. We - Americans - all of us right now - are TRULY PRIVILEGED to live in America. Look around the world. There is a reason people want to come here. So much of this is relative.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
We have a profitable auto industry with scores of thousands of jobe, we saved several banks, many of whose leaders should be in jail, we pumped billions of wage dollars into the job market and basically stopped the collapse of the US economy. The private sector occaisionally stops. The government has to step in. It's a process that's worked for thousands of years.Maybe it was too much, maybe just right, but most economists suggest it fell short and will extend the recovery. Billions in bonuses to thieves is not stimulus, they hoard it. Government spending employes real people when the private sector cannot. It's universal economic theory.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
Graceful by any measure American wealth is concentrating at one of the highest rates in history. You're doing a FOX reality denial here. Every financial measure says we're concentrating wealth at historic rates.
tonto 1 year, 7 months ago
So you are accusing Warren Buffet of spreading extreme left-wing rhetoric?
tonto_goldberg 1 year, 7 months ago
Actually, he is planning to work until he dies, and let Bill Gates give it away for him after that.
tonto_goldberg 1 year, 7 months ago
Warren Buffet has got it all wrong and you're right? I don't think that's plausible.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Yes, LaTortuga, we've had slavery, we've had Jim Crow, we've had sharecropping. That's history. Some of the other things you identify are ?. so, what is the point in saying these things?
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
You represent yourself well, LaTortuga
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
The rich pay taxes. Duh. And they are rich so they pay more than you or I. Duh! But they pay a less fair share than any time in the past hundred years, Duh! Only the most extreme are calling for their heads, but they do need to give back some of the money they used to give the government that Bush gave back to them . . . whoa, gettin' a little dizzy here. Taxes are not "their" money, it's the money they owe all of us as partners in our society. As long as you call taxes stealing you undermine the very basis of common good and responsibility. Maybe that's your goal. Have another cookie.
evenkeel 1 year, 7 months ago
asb, where do I begin? "The young and unskilled find ample work below minimum wage." The unemployment rate for 18-24 year olds is 18%. I prefer facts to your attestations.
Sequoia said "Perfect capitalism is not the utopia that some people think it is. Conservatives, by the way, are not supposed to believe in utopias." I read that to say that conservatives want perfect capitalism and that they believe that would lead to utopia. Strawman.
Back to you. "There were some mistakes made by Bush and Obama efforts to level out the bottom of the recession, but the biggest was actually not putting enough capital into circulation." The private sector is the source of capitalization.
I prefer Horatio Alger stories to Charles Dickens. Those are the stories of upward mobility, which I am certain are more relevant to the American experience and more realistic. I attest to THAT.
I do not see nefarious forces trying to keep people down. Those that pass on that fallacy are damaging the country by damaging the will of the country. Weakness and helplessness are not uplifting. Why discourage people in their striving to lift themselves up? Upward mobility is very much attainable.
• You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. • You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. • You cannot help little men by tearing down big men. • You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. • You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. • You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money. • You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. • You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn. • You cannot build character and courage by destroying men's initiative and independence. • And you cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they can and should do for themselves.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Good for you, evenkeel and WOW!!!! I am presuming the statements in the last paragraph are of your creation. WOW WOW WOW - SO WELL SAID. WORTHY OF REMEMBERING AND REPEATING!! THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS!
evenkeel 1 year, 7 months ago
Were you worth $8.25 / hour when you were 17 years old or when you were unskilled?
I wasn't. Man oh man... I sure was not.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
When I was seventeen a gallon of gas, a pack of cigarettes and a glass of beer each cost about twenty cents. Minimum wage was something I never saw while cutting grass and washing windows & dishes. Yes, unemployment is high among the young and unskilled, I hadn't said otherwise. Are you saying that's the fault of the present minimum wage?
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Hey LaTortuga. Sounds like you have a really dim view of people in general.... and life. Conservative principles are about an 'America where freedom, opportunity, prosperity, and civil society flourish.' I see nothing here about 'making a bunch of money right now'. This is what people believe - what is wrong with that? Where is the harm? This is what motivates some people to put their feet on the floor in the morning and then one in front of the other. The only promise this country's founding documents promise is about OPPORTUNITY. Don't like where things are for you? Look in the mirror. That is who begins the change in your life. The world is full of possibilities and it sounds like - given the data you provide - 9 billion possibilities by 2050! Good luck! oh - the quote is from heritage.org.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Yes, in this particular post, I am. I choose a quote from a common conservative source to represent the conservative principles. Its really a brief quote: 'America where freedom, opportunity, prosperity, and civil society flourish.' Seems quite logical to me to use them as a source - you see - I have this silly idea to best represent people or groups of people as accurately as I can. Again this is with another silly idea that when I participate in a discussion, I do so with accurate information. Of course, for me the silly idea of learning from discussions such as this - requires accurate representation of myself and others. But that's just me. Don't know what the purpose would be to do anything other than that. but hey - you got in another good laugh - and then the sun shined! You obviously have other ideas of what you would like America to be. Do you not want an 'America where freedom, opportunity, prosperity, and civil society flourish'?
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
not sure that it is about whether or not one is good enough. It may well be about perspective. Some people are/were, I am certain 'worth' the wage; others say they are/were not and it may well be true, too. There are still others who say they are/were not and because of humility or something similar - are/were 'worth' way beyond the wages received. And then we have people who think they are/were 'worth' the wage and in actuality are/were not. You know - an inflated ego sort of thing. Are you using the same measuring tool to determine 'worth'? Another thing comes to mind:people develop at different stages of life. So, when you say 'you weren't that good' - it may be wise to factor in the aforementioned things. It is almost irrelevant especially if one is 'successful' today. Seems I recall hearing evenkeel mentioning something along those lines. oh yes - I just remembered - some people 'peek' early in life - so the success of - oh maybe their teen years - or 20's - is as good as it will get for them. What is important - as I see it - is people do their best as best as they can.
JMO 1 year, 7 months ago
Not everyone HAS to get minimum wage and kids with summer jobs, etc., are pretty much exempt.
Straight from the DOL website:
Occupations such as babysitting are not subject to the minimum wage law.
The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires a minimum of not less than $4.25 per hour for employees under 20 years of age during their first 90 consecutive calendar days of employment with an employer. After 90 days of employment, or when the worker reaches age 20 (whichever comes first), the worker must receive the minimum wage. Employers are prohibited from taking any action to displace employees in order to hire employees at the youth minimum wage. Also prohibited are partial displacements such as reducing employees’ hours, wages, or employment benefits.
Certain full-time students, student learners, apprentices and workers with disabilities may be paid less than the minimum wage under special certificates from the Secretary of Labor. This is commonly referred to as the sub-minimum wage.
Tipped employees. A tipped employee is any employee working in an occupation in which he or she regularly receives more than $30 a month in tips. Many states have higher direct wage amounts for tipped employees
evenkeel 1 year, 7 months ago
No Petunia. It was this: Copy, Paste. Not in my most grandiose dreams do I think that I could write simple truths like that. No. Not mine.
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
A good find nevertheless.
3bunnies 1 year, 7 months ago
Would like to know where that "Copy and Paste " came from. Very good pts. made there.
Thanks for sharing
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
Rev. William Boetckter, not Lincoln as Reagan said.
evenkeel 1 year, 7 months ago
Some people are not worth hiring at $8.25 / hour.
I expect a flood of 18-24 year olds will now push and jostle each other to become babysitters.
Those unskilled workers more than 20 years of age and not interested in babysitting or waiting tables should not be blocked from employment by do-gooder policies.
This kind of largesse with other people's money is at the core of liberalism. It serves mostly to stroke the ego of the liberal, with little regard to the damage being done.
I met a tough S of a B in a bar once. He kept trying to start something . But he was a liberal. He kept elbowing me in the ribs while pointing to a fella 6 foot 5 and about 260 pounds, wide in the shoulders and slim in the hips with fists the size of country hams. That tough liberal S of a B kept saying to me "Let's you and him fight."
asb 1 year, 7 months ago
Your other post was much better. This one's a fairy tale.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
lol!
muleman 1 year, 7 months ago
Keep in mind that todays wages turn into tomorrows social security benefits. Too many seniors cant make it on social security today because they spent too many years working for $2.50 an hour. Sure $2.50 an hour bought a lot back in the 40's but it wont feed you today. Any savings at that rate of pay amount to nothing or less than nothing after paying taxes on the interest for years. Its hard to justify scrimping and saving and doing without in order to put away $50.00 a month that wont even buy a tank of gas today. Its makes you wish you would have spent it while it was worth something. Personall I believe that workers should be paid what they are worth to the company, no more and no less. If they raise minimum wage to $8.25 an hour how many state workers are in for a raise? Just a random thought that ran thru my mind while reading this. In 1968 my dad worked for $8.00 an hour doing heavy construction. He bought a brand new ford F-250 pick up for $1,800.00, basically one years wages. Today at $8.50 an hour you would work 3 years to buy a new F-250, and that does not include taxes
spelchek 1 year, 7 months ago
If this passes, everyone in Missouri will make the average wage of a state worker.
hudson 1 year, 7 months ago
Why 8.25 why not 10.00 ? maybe 12.00,how about 15.00 ,do I hear 20.00 ?
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Sequoia - you identify balance as important. I agree. It sounds like you use free market and capitalism interchangeably. Probably most of us do. Also, government and socialism. Given this - as I see it - the free market and government are two different AND SEPARATE entities. I don't know much about England's attempt at 'perfect capitalism' - what time in her history did this occur? Anyway, many say 'the market will correct itself' and that government steps in thus not allowing it to correct itself.I recognize why they say this, though. I do think it is okay - even necessary - for government to regulate some things but not control the market as you describe as being the brakes, gas pedal, and steering wheel. As I see it, this is why we have alot of the problems we are currently experiencing. Yes, people in the business world made some decisions and we have the consequences of these decisions to deal with. Government stepping in and affecting 'winners and losers' as they did sets things on a different trajectory than if it had been left alone to fix itself. I know people were afraid of the worst and this is what motivated the 'bailout'. Woujld it have been better or worse than what we have at this time - no one knows. Many think this caused the proverbial can to be kicked down the road. This is what I see, too. The self correction the market needed to do did not happen. It has been postponed. While government intervention at this time is intended to stimulate - it really postpones the market from stimulating itself.
Gabrielle 1 year, 7 months ago
Sequoia: You said: 'I wonder if working-class people who rant about socialism and the free market actually understand the consequences of the radical ideas they so casually toss around. Unless the commenters on here are real big money players (in which case, we're in more trouble than we thought!), then some people are actually arguing against their own economic interests.'
How do you see people 'arguing against their own economic interests'?
tonto 1 year, 7 months ago
I can give you some examples: I really hope you can follow the logic on fthese examples but if you need explanations, I can do it. If you want a simplistic Fox News derivative response, I am sure Graceful will chime in.
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