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Mo. House OKs lower age for concealed gun permits

By CHRIS BLANK
Associated Press Writer
Published: Thursday, April 9, 2009 8:28 AM CDT
Legislation lowering the minimum age for obtaining a concealed-weapons permit and allowing concealed guns at public colleges and universities received first-round approval Wednesday in the Missouri House.

A 2003 state law allows Missouri residents to obtain permits to carry concealed weapons if they are at least 23 years old, have no felony convictions and pass a firearms training course and background check.

That law also bars concealed weapons in certain places such as schools, public hospitals and stadiums with at least 5,000 seats.

The House bill lowers the minimum age for obtaining a concealed-carry permit to 21 and lifts the ban on concealed weapons at public colleges and universities and expands Missouri's castle doctrine law to allow the use of deadly force to cover any private property.

House members gave the measure first-round approval on a voice vote. It needs a second vote to move to the Senate.

Rep. Brian Munzlinger, R-Williamstown, offered the language on state college and university campuses as an amendment, which was approved 106-41.

Munzlinger said allowing properly trained Missourians to carry concealed weapons on college campuses would improve public safety. Several House supporters said that if the victims had carried guns, it's possible fewer people would have been killed during various fatal shootings such as one at Virginia Tech in 2007.

“Schools and other gun-free zones are where people like to target,” Munzlinger said. He said that to someone seeking to commit a crime, “everyone's children were sitting there like a bunch of sheep.”

But some Democrats questioned that logic and said they doubted increasing the number of guns on college campuses would improve safety.

Rep. Chris Kelly, a former judge in the college town of Columbia, said he's aware of situations where college students have done incredible things while drinking. Kelly then recited stories of alcohol-fueled hijinks involving explosions and possums.

“We are going to put guns in the fraternity houses and the dormitories, and it is inconceivable that good can come from that,” said Kelly, D-Columbia.

Missouri's minimum age for obtaining a concealed-carry permit is the nation's highest. Of the 48 states that allow concealed weapon permits, about three-quarters require applicants to be 21 years old, according to Handgunlaw.us, a Web site operated by gun rights supporters to track state firearms laws. Other states allow permits even younger, at age 18.

Since 2004, there have been more than 59,000 requests to the Missouri State Highway Patrol for criminal background checks to get concealed weapons permits.

The other portion of the House legislation extends a 2007 “castle doctrine” law that gives Missourians a right to defend themselves and their property. The law says there is no duty to retreat from a home or vehicle if an intruder enters illegally.

The legislation extends that to cover private property that is owned or leased by the person seeking to use the defensive force.

---

Concealed-carry is HB668

On the Net:

Legislature: http://www.moga.mo.gov



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traceyt wrote on Apr 18, 2009 7:06 PM:

" waiting,
Apparently I misunderstood your previous comment. Apparently we agree that only CCW holders would be allowed to bring a gun on campus.

Having a permit doesnt make anyone more responsible. Statistically, permit holders are more responsible than average. I agree that some immature, irresponsible people (and those who lack self control) apply for permits. As you said, age and profession doesn't guarantee maturity. Since you understand this, why do you support professors carrying but not students? No maturity or self control tests exist. If one did exist, I wouldn't feel comfortable giving the government the ability to turn that requirement into an arbitrary approval based on political ideology. History shows that this turns out poorly. "

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rojo wrote on Apr 15, 2009 5:26 PM:

" Initial fears of CCW have pretty well been laid to rest.

CCW permit holders are far more representative of mainstream citizens than the whack jobs and crack heads we see killing people in every major inner city. Missouri's CCW training is minimal, at best. The actual shooting/handling "test" is a joke. Better than nothing, but not by much.

We are about to see a major push to reduce gun violence if national news is any indication. Repeated airings of inner-city kids being gunned down are frequent and quite pointed. The sad reality is that when the politicians target the inner-city shootings, they will lump the rest of us in with them. When guns are outlawed, only criminals will be armed. "

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waitingontheend wrote on Apr 15, 2009 10:05 AM:

" I didn't say the CDC said it I copied and pasted to show that just because you carry and conceal does not make you aa responsible individual. I would be all for databases being set up with every person that is carrying and the professors get a sheet with all the students who are carrying so that way you know who to watch out for if they are acting weird. A gun with a bullet makes a killer no matter who you are. What are the odds of someone storming a store and shooting a bunch of people, pretty slim. People say they want to carry to protect from this - put doesn't that make you paranoid and then dangerous. "

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hardtime wrote on Apr 15, 2009 9:08 AM:

" Waitingontheend- fact: 37,313 people were killed in traffic crashes last year. So what do you thank should we outlaw cars?

*Of your 12,352 homicides you indicated how many of them were thug killing thug over dope?
*You also say that 17,002 commit suicides then say hmm seems like responsible gun owners usually turn the weapon on themselves there are 303,824,640 million people living in the U.S. 87% of them own at lease one firearm. 17,200 does not even reflect .05% of gun owners. Os the word "usually" is a big stretch.
*Most suicides are done by overdosing on pills heres a plan lets outlaw medication with the cars and the guns. Then waitingontheend wont need to wait so long. "

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waitingontheend wrote on Apr 14, 2009 2:22 PM:

" FACT:In 2005 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,694 gun deaths in the U.S:

* 12,352 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 17,002 suicides (55% of all U.S gun deaths),
* 789 unintentional shootings, 330 from legal intervention and 221 from undetermined intent (5% of all U.S gun deaths combined).

-Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2008.

Hmm seems like responsible gun owners usually turn the weapon on themselves. "

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waitingontheend wrote on Apr 14, 2009 1:55 PM:

" tracey - Apparently you think only responsible people apply for permits. You go with that. What I got from the article is that you would be allowed to have a firearm if you have a ccw and you are 21 or older. I read it right. BTW I know people with CCW and they have no business with a gun and are older than 23. One use to be a Deputy Sheriff, he is now deceased from a car wreck. So I stand by what I say about immature. "

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lovemyboys wrote on Apr 14, 2009 12:38 PM:

" Boscoe -- AMEN! I was cracking up at your comment...good one! "

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traceyt wrote on Apr 11, 2009 1:05 AM:

" livinjcmo
That is a good point. It would be better to remove these legal restrictions (except for areas like a jail). This law won't allow CCW at colleges, it just removes the legal prohibition against it for permit holders. Although I personally think it is foolish for businesses and other private organizations to restrict CCW on their property by posting the signs (often seen as advertising an easy target for criminals), I fully support their right as the property owners to do so. I don't think we will ever see a law that removes this right from the property owner, but it is good to understand the distinction between the law prohibiting CCW and a property owner prohibiting it. "

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traceyt wrote on Apr 11, 2009 12:37 AM:

" have some serious discussion about what can happen to people that disregard the rules. I think most classes also discuss the moral implications of shooting someone as well. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it won't bother you for the rest of your life. "

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traceyt wrote on Apr 11, 2009 12:36 AM:

" "...what is 8 hrs and $250. You possibly cannot learn all the safety and responsibility of carrying a gun in 8 hours."

$250 (conservative estimate) is a lot to most people. So is an 8 hour day sitting in a classroom when you could be out doing something fun. The wait (up to 45 days) for the background check to return would also seem like a lot if you were just trying to be cool.
You can learn to handle a gun safely in 30 minutes with proper instruction. Whether you choose to implement that understanding is another question. The other 5-6 hours is plenty of time to discuss what you can and cannot do with your firearm, and (continued) "

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traceyt wrote on Apr 11, 2009 12:35 AM:

" waiting,
Uh, no it doesn't. Read it again. It says "...lifts the ban on concealed weapons". See the part where it says "concealed"? This means that you need a CCW permit(concealing a weapon is a felony without one). If you read the bill itself, it is obvious that this change only affects CCW holders. "

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livinjcmo wrote on Apr 11, 2009 12:27 AM:

" If the argument is that armed students would lower the chance of campus shootings wouldn't that also go for the state office buildings, malls, hospitals, nursing homes, and so on. If it will be okay to bring them on to colleges and universities, why not state office buildings or any other business that now has the right to ban them?? "

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boscoe wrote on Apr 10, 2009 8:37 PM:

" 8 hours training and $250 for conceal and carry is a lot more training required than driving a motor vehicle. Why is it OK to give a 15 or 16 year old with absolutely no training a $20 license to freely drive a 6,000 pound SUV weapon on our streets, putting thousands of citizens at risk everyday?

Uh oh, I found another double standard! "

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waitingontheend wrote on Apr 10, 2009 7:11 PM:

" The House bill lowers the minimum age for obtaining a concealed-carry permit to 21 and lifts the ban on concealed weapons at public colleges and universities....

I think this says you can and what is 8 hrs and $250. You possibly cannot learn all the safety and responsibility of carrying a gun in 8 hours. If you grew up with guns yeah, but not the average joe that decides it's cool to carry. "

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traceyt wrote on Apr 10, 2009 5:42 PM:

" Keep in mind that this amendment does not allow guns to be carried into colleges by anyone. You still have to get your CCW permit, which means that you have to attend an 8 hour training class that focuses primarily on safety and the legal use of force, as well as have a background check (including fingerprinting) done to ensure that you are legally eligible for a permit. I doubt that most of the frat boys referred to would be willing to spend the money (around $250) or the time that it would take to get a CCW permit just for the fun of it, or as a "fad". "

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waitingontheend wrote on Apr 10, 2009 5:36 PM:

" I might have errored, I am not up on gun laws but maybe the sawed off shotgun would be illegal no matter what. :) "

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JCpatriot wrote on Apr 10, 2009 5:28 PM:

" Wait,
Clint Eastwood & his spagetti westerns our classic, He's still the man lol. Atleast for know they have taken our fire-arm or handguns away? oh thats next with this so-called "Moderm Militia movement" they dreamed up ? "

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O-RLY wrote on Apr 10, 2009 5:17 PM:

" Waiting I can agree there. Ive often pondered with the idea of carrying a rifle around with me all day and making a documentary out of it. Seeing how I am treated by people and businesses. Since, unless they have a sign posted at the door, it would be legal to enter those places. If they ask you to leave thats another thing.

Oh, and lincoln isnt a good place to form your opinions of law abiding citizens OR college campuses. I, too, have attended LU. "

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traceyt wrote on Apr 10, 2009 5:14 PM:

" wow said: "...Now ya got an OK Coral shootout! Not-good-at-all! "

We have heard this argument before. In fact, it was repeated quite a bit before the CCW law passed in 2003. It has been 6 years for Missouri now, and this has never happened. It is time for you to get a new argument since your old one has been proven false by reality. "

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waitingontheend wrote on Apr 10, 2009 5:11 PM:

" Here is a thought - why conceal, why not pack out in the open, that way you know who is carrying and that would be more of a deterent for a gunman to stampede a building if he sees several people with weapons displayed. Why do you have to conceal the weapon. It worked in the wild west days. Would you mess with Clint Eastwood with two six shooters on his side and a saw off on his back. "

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waitingontheend wrote on Apr 10, 2009 5:05 PM:

" Like I said before the population needs thinning out so this is a good idea as long as I can shoot anyone that I feel is threatening me without being prosecuted. Your military type are trained to handle a gun. Your average frat boy is not and this law would be like a fad for people that are not really interested in learning the ins and outs of carrying and the consequences. I went to Lincoln and I don't think I can think of one person that I would feel comfortable about having a concealed weapon. But something has to be done with the thugs. "

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Travelin_Rose wrote on Apr 10, 2009 3:20 PM:

" I feel very safe if I know someone in my vicinity has a concealed weapon. Whenever I see a big sign that says: No weapons or guns allowed. I know everyone in that building are targets if a gunman wants to come in and start shooting. How would anyone stop a gunman? With a stapler? "

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O-RLY wrote on Apr 10, 2009 1:34 PM:

" Waiting, immature people already HAVE weapons, theyre called gangbangers and criminals. And they tend to harm law abiding citizens.

Missouri's CCW law requires that carriers be older than most of the country. Most states say 21 is legal. You dont hear about people with their CCW shootin up masses anywhere, do ya? Rest assured, if it ever happened, our media would never let it go. "

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boscoe wrote on Apr 10, 2009 12:58 PM:

" "Inmature hands"?!

Our country's national defense is based totally on giving deadly weapons only designed to kill other humans to persons 5 years younger than the bill talks about! "

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blkpag1 wrote on Apr 10, 2009 12:25 PM:

" At 21 they are legally able to purchase a handgun why not allow them to take the training and carry it? At 21 they are already able to carry it in their car without a permit. Most states that have CCW have a minimum age of 21. If it would be allowed in college then they would still have to be the minimum age and jump through the same hoops to aquire a carry permit. Several states allow carry at colleges and there have been no increase in crime involving CCW permit holders. "

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ndnlvngcherokee wrote on Apr 10, 2009 11:40 AM:

" waitingontheend question ...you think it is wrong to put these guns into the hands legally for 21yr olds...how do you feel about those same 21 yrs giving their lives defending your rights to deny that?? I feel if you can be 18 to be drafted or join the service how can our govt then say you arent old enough to hold a concealed weapon or drink?? Seems like a double standard isnt it "

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waitingontheend wrote on Apr 10, 2009 11:01 AM:

" I guess one should operate on if the person looks threatening, shoot first then ask if he had a concealed weapon later. The population needs thinning out and putting guns in immature hands is a good way to start. :) "

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boscoe wrote on Apr 10, 2009 10:24 AM:

" I am so sick of our government working harder to protect criminals instead of the honest people.

Why should they advertise to terrorists that there is a huge big building of unprotected, unarmed sitting ducks waiting to be blown away? That make no sense at all to me.

Allow people to use their 2nd amendment rights and protect themselves.

More liberals who want us all to become dependent on the government for everything, I guess. "

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average_joe wrote on Apr 10, 2009 10:06 AM:

" Boscoe,

I would love to see a sign like that.

I'll have to have one made. "

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O-RLY wrote on Apr 10, 2009 9:41 AM:

" Amen Boscoe, i couldnt agree with you more.

But isnt it funny how the very places that uphold and make our laws, the places the technically WE, as tax paying citizens OWN, are the first to shoot down our rights on those grounds? Have you been to the cole county courthouse lately? Went to a shotgun wedding there few months ago.... "

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boscoe wrote on Apr 9, 2009 9:14 PM:

" Very few things scare me more than to walk into a public building that has a huge sign posted:

"No guns or weapons of any kind allowed in this building".

That is nothing but a big fat invitation to terrorists and nutjobs to walk right in and start shooting because no one in the building is armed and can protect themselves.

I'd rather see a sign that said:

"Many occupants of this building conceal and carry. Start trouble at your own risk." "

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wow wrote on Apr 9, 2009 6:56 PM:

" I agree with the Castle Doctrine, but perhaps it would have been better to allow only the "faculty members" who pass the checks and are well trained to conceal and carry on campus. At least that way there'd be much better control over who is armed on campus. I can see it now, some Hollywood John Wayne Wanna Be College getting Tazed or worse for trying to take the law into his/her own hands. What's campus gonna be like at grade time? Johnny/Susie Rich Kid doesn't like like the grade the Prof has given, so he/she flashes a big Desert Eagle to scare the Prof in front of the class. Now ya got an OK Coral shootout! Not-good-at-all! "

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Mac1974 wrote on Apr 9, 2009 4:37 PM:

" ~~~~~~~~~Schools and other gun-free zones are where people like to target, Munzlinger said. He said that to someone seeking to commit a crime, everyone's children were sitting there like a bunch of sheep.~~~~~~~~~~~~

lol.... he's trying to scare people with this statement and referring to people as sheep while he's saying it.

sheesh "

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average_joe wrote on Apr 9, 2009 10:52 AM:

" You've got my support. Especially with the Castle Doctrine extension. "

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