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Bond will back auto bailout plan

Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo.

By The Associated Press

See reader comments below this story.

Published: Saturday, November 15, 2008 4:53 AM CST
Missouri Sen. Kit Bond said Friday he would join Democrats in supporting a plan to loan $25 billion to the beleaguered auto industry.

Bond is only the second Republican senator to back the proposal, which faces opposition from the GOP minority and the White House. Democrats want to carve the emergency loans for automakers out of the $700 billion financial rescue package passed last month.

“The idea of the government getting involved in the free market is very troublesome and potentially dangerous to the health of our system, but we have to act in unique times of crisis when tens of thousands of Missouri workers are in danger of losing their jobs,” Bond said in a prepared statement.

Bond made the decision after seeking assurances from Democratic Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan that the plan would include protections for taxpayers, executive accountability and financial reforms to bring automakers' costs back under control.

The Senate will take up a measure to extend the emergency loans to automakers on Monday. General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler are pushing Congress to approve the aid.

Democrats have been seeking about a dozen Republicans to support the measure and push it past an expected filibuster, but the only other Republican to back the plan so far is Sen. George Voinovich of Ohio, a state with several auto plants and manufacturers of auto supplies.

The White House said Friday it favors an alternative plan to speed release of a separate $25 billion loan package for the Big Three carmakers that was approved in September and aimed at helping them meet stringent fuel-efficiency rules.

Missouri has more than 221,000 auto-related jobs, which includes workers employed at three automotive production plants in the state as well as manufacturers of auto supplies. Ford Motor Co. builds the F-150 pickup truck in Claycomo, near Kansas City; GM has a plant in Wentzville, that builds fullsize vans, the Chevrolet Express and GMC Savana; and Chrysler produces the Dodge Ram at its North Assembly Plant outside St. Louis.

Last month, Chrysler stopped production of Dodge and Chrysler minivans at its South Assembly Plant in Fenton and laid off about 1,500 workers.

Missouri's junior senator, Democrat Claire McCaskill, says she supports the concept of extending the loans, but wants to see the protections guaranteed to taxpayers before she can vote for the bill.

Bond also is supporting a separate measure with Sen. Barbara Mikulski, D-Md., that would make the interest on new car loan payments and sales taxes tax deductible for a year. The deduction would be available to families earning less than $250,000, or individuals making less than $125,000 annually.

What do you think? Join the discussion below.


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Thanks.

ODF wrote on Dec 1, 2008 10:10 AM:

" JC - We (or last I) were/was referring to line employees. The folks on the line do not design, build and/or program the robots. Likewise they do not work with aerodynamics and other engineering aspects of auto design. The line workers, place panels and parts, twist bolts, etc....... you know, factory line work. $60,000/year for factory line work is unacceptable and a contributing factor to the demise of the auto industry. "

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JCpatriot wrote on Nov 29, 2008 11:37 PM:

" ODF,
Sorry to say there more than bolt turning to make a car. There's robotics, wind aero dynamics, electronics etc. yes there bolt turners also, there computer engineering & management too, that make a correct vehicle that last beyond its warranty? To include new alternative fuel & electric engineers usually make about 40- 50 grand without a Union with there degree?

I also agreed they need to take a pay cut, possibly get rid of the union money wastes etc. Including all the asst & CEO's plus bonus if they want to keep there jobs to retire... "

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ODF wrote on Nov 25, 2008 1:34 PM:

" Exactly boscoe!! It's just like that "right to work" or "fair work act" a local union is pushing. What it does is RESTRICT non-union employees from working on public, prevailing wage construction jobs. Like I've said before, it would actually prevent non-union, taxpaying construction workers from working on jobs that THEIR taxes helped fund, simply because they don't pay union dues. How they can label that a "right to work" or "fair work" act is laugable! "

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boscoe wrote on Nov 25, 2008 1:15 PM:

" Fair treatment is that if you don't like your job, go get another one. If you want a job that requires certain skills and/or education, then go get those skills and/or education and then go after the job.

How is it fair treatment to ask taxpayers to subsidize your overpaid job for a failing business model when no other jobs are subsidized in that manner?

How is it fair that UAW nut-tighteners earn more than most professional jobs that require years of study?

UAW supporter talking about "fairness" is a real hoot! I am ROTFLMAO over your posts! "

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ODF wrote on Nov 25, 2008 12:52 PM:

" Nobody is guaranteed a "right" to work in an auto plant, hold a union job or make $60,000/year for twisting bolts. Missouri is an at will state....they can be fired for no reason and w/o cause.

Another thought, that I think jc brought up...there are people with engineering degrees working the assembly line. Why? Because they can make more as a bolt turner than in the engineering field....and that is completely contrary to common sense and fiscal responsibility on the part of UAW. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 25, 2008 11:47 AM:

" Boscoe, what they need, want and deserve is fair treatment.. but I guess you don't agree so we'll just have to settle with agreeing to disagree "

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Christnlady wrote on Nov 24, 2008 7:25 PM:

" Just last week on Fox, Toyota CEO makes $1m, the big 3 CEO's tens of millions! need bankruptcy to regroup & re-negotiate the contracts!! "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 24, 2008 4:04 PM:

" If the compant wouldn't give them what they want, they should be free to go somewhere else and look for a job that does.

Why do they need a union to negotiate for them? If they are worth what they think they are worth, they should have no problem getting another job that pays better.

So why do they even need a bailout. The UAW workers should give Chyrsler, Ford, and GM the finger and move on to a better company and better pay. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 24, 2008 3:12 PM:

" These people KNOW their machines, but when put on another w/out any training or learning time, they're given a letter? Come on, your answer is pathetic. they wouldn't have been able to stay on THEIR machine w/out making rate to begin with, now you're telling them they won't have a job because they weren't properly trained on it? That is where the Union comes in... when the company is trying to pull one over on them "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 24, 2008 3:09 PM:

" Boscoe - you're response to my question was "I'd get some assertivenes training and counseling to imp0rove my self esteem so that I could talk to my boss myself, negotiate my own pay, and not become dependent on a third-party who doesn't have my interests at heart to try to protect me. " You think these people involved have low self asteem? First of all, you couldn't be farther from the truth. I could imagine workers of this company walking in to HR trying to negotiate their pay. they'd get laughed at. And as for the "up your rate" issue, as soon as it would be brought up by employees, they'd all be shown the door. "

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JCpatriot wrote on Nov 24, 2008 2:42 PM:

" mainly the CEO's Toyota only ask for 1million this yr. Gm , Ford ,& crysler ceos making 20-30 million in bonus, thats one of there big problems that toyota don't have also? "

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JCpatriot wrote on Nov 24, 2008 2:39 PM:

" Yes, I do agree that some of there wages & car prices are way too high. They had toyota plant in tenn. on tv. your right there surviving mostly because no union control & employees, are not taking there raises either for know which is smart... "

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JCpatriot wrote on Nov 24, 2008 2:35 PM:

" FYI:
People with 4 & 6yrs engineering & computer science some do have auto-worker jobs also. Its not just HS graduates that work in these huge employed Auto- manufact plants. My grandfather had a 6yr engineering degree from Navy & retired navy with his degree went to Textron Plant to retire.
Food for thought : there is college Grads losing jobs at these Big Plants also? "

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ODF wrote on Nov 24, 2008 2:13 PM:

" I would love to see a breakdown of the cost of a car. For example, how much is attributed to materials, how much to shipping, how much to profit, how much is employee wages, etc. I mean if you're talking about an entire assembly line of $40,000 - $60,000 employees paid to twist bolts, install parts, etc., that has to contribute significantly to the overall cost of the vehicle.
I saw an ad last night..either Saturn or Kia...brand new, decent looking car, starting around $9900. "

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JCpatriot wrote on Nov 24, 2008 2:04 PM:

" ODF & Boscoe
Great comment, Kit Bond is right to save Auto workers. Atleast Missouri alone as about 40,000. STl & KC: Ford , Crysler thats alot of middle class jobs that pay in main State & Fed Tax revenue. Your right they are over paid Union BS makes it worse. Both would really hurt Missouri 's economy.

We really don't have many blue collar paying job good jobs left that pay 20grand-40grand a yr. left here, due to the effects of the 1992 Free Trade Agreement. Gov. Blunt gave us some new jobs not all full-time either here in Mo. more than half are still out of Mo. econ in Mexico & Canada? "

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ODF wrote on Nov 24, 2008 1:44 PM:

" Interesting that when folks disagree you all up in arms and then make things up. Did anyone say that, ANYWHERE in this post? No, didn't think so....but pay should be commensurate with education, experience and job duties. Twisting a bolt is not a $60,000/year job. Next you'll be telling us that McDonald's will unionize and burger flippers w/o a high school degree should earn $40,000/year! LOL!! I love Mondays! "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 24, 2008 12:49 PM:

" SOOO everyone on earth should have a college degree??? Funny, just funny "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 24, 2008 10:25 AM:

" BEST POST OF THE WEEK:


ODF wrote on Nov 24, 2008 8:15 AM:

" I liken factory union jobs to that of professional athletes....way overpaid for the job they do, when you have teachers, cops, firefighters, and other important jobs often making a little above poverty level. This country's priorties are out of whack. " "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 24, 2008 10:10 AM:

" Mommy- same answer stands. The only thing I can add to it is that I would also learn how to speak for myself. I'd get some assertivenes training and counseling to imp0rove my self esteem so that I could talk to my boss myself, negotiate my own pay, and not become dependent on a third-party who doesn't have my interests at heart to try to protect me.

it is that simple: Get some skills. Speak for yourself. Take care of yourself. Don't hand your livelyhood over to some fool who has to lump you in with all the other lemmings, and who can only negotiate from the lowest common denominator. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 24, 2008 8:15 AM:

" I liken factory union jobs to that of professional athletes....way overpaid for the job they do, when you have teachers, cops, firefighters, and other important jobs often making a little above poverty level. This country's priorties are out of whack. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 24, 2008 8:12 AM:

" ROFL....mommy doesn't like your answer Boscoe, so now she wants you to come up with another one! LOL!!


The EXACT same answers hold true whether it's automakers, Cheeseborough Ponds (or whatever it's called now), Johnson Controls, VonHoffman, etc.. The same basic principles in Boscoe's answers hold true. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 24, 2008 8:07 AM:

" But that is typical of liberals. I would not take a union wage to work on an assembly line. With a college degree, why would I want to work in an unskilled job that does nothing but numb the mind. I worked factory jobs years ago..and would not go back for twice my salary, especially a union job. I know the liberals love unions, but not everyone does. I prefer my CAREER where I use my mind as much as my body, have room for advancement, etc..
Look in the paper...there are careers wanting a master's degree and starting pay is $30,000/year or less. More than twice that to twist a bolt is ridiculous-and-a-large-reason-why-US-automakers-and-other-manufacturers-have-gone-under. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 24, 2008 8:04 AM:

" Mac1974 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:24 AM:
Let us assume ODF and/or jclocal are making half as much as these union car makers. They are offered a job at a union plant, which will double their salary. Will they take it?

They'd not only take it, they'd be wearing "Proud Member of the XYZ Union" shirts every time they left their house.

You know why we still have unions?

First of all...assume all you want, but I make just over half of that salary I posted.
Secondly, I love it when folks attribute THEIR values to other people. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 24, 2008 7:56 AM:

" Boscoe, my question regarding a local company has NOTHING to do with the car issue. This is a company right here in Jeff City that is Union. Now, re-read my initial story and question and if you have a better answer than what you gave me.....give me another one "

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shinymcshine wrote on Nov 22, 2008 5:24 PM:

" Things I'd do if I was a worker:
1) Realize the jig is up. I've been getting paid higher than the market will bear and that is about to end
2) Be prepared and ready to EMBRACE the new way buisness is going to be conducted, which will include lower wages/benefits
3) Look to successful car companies and how they do it for a guide as to how its going to be and realize, the sky won't fall. Overall, they pay well and keep a very happy workforce.

The reality is, you can't keep doing things the same way but expect different results.
To quote Obama, "Change has come to America". "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 22, 2008 11:13 AM:

" Mommy- I'll answer your question about what would I do if I were a worker. I would get my butt in school and get some marketable skills. Obviously the writing is on the wall- like it or not, the US is no longer a manufacturing powerhouse and low-skill assembly line manufacturing jobs are not in demand any longer. Get some skills and prepare to get a new job doing something that is in demand and not trying to hang on to a dinosauer job that isn't going to be around any longer. How can the union help you? All they can do is hang a carrot of hope out and keep taking your money. "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 21, 2008 10:01 PM:

" I agree with you 100% Boscoe. Daddyat55, that may be the case with the new contract, but it comes too late, the damage has been in the making for years. If they would have only though to do this 20+ years ago they might be singing a different tune. "

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boscoe wrote on Nov 21, 2008 9:01 PM:

" daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 5:53 PM:

" jclocal, THAT'S WHAT THEY GOT IN OCT. the new contract states that, lower wages, No company paid retirement,no benifits. what more do you want????patterned after foregin carmakers.!!!!!! "


ONLY for new hires. How many new hires will Big 3 have when they have 20+ plants they need to close due to overcapacity and ineffeciency?

Cut 'em all. Declare bankrupsy, break all the existing contracts with the suppliers and unions, then start from scratch.

Oh, and get rid of the top 3-4 levels of corporate management.

No bailouts considered until all of this happens. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 5:53 PM:

" jclocal, THAT'S WHAT THEY GOT IN OCT. the new contract states that, lower wages, No company paid retirement,no benifits. what more do you want????patterned after foregin carmakers.!!!!!! "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 21, 2008 5:08 PM:

" so you can understand that. Cut workers wages in half, move away from a completely funded retirement pension, build more attractive and efficient car models to buyers and you will see all 3 rise again. "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 21, 2008 5:07 PM:

" Mac, you are right, If I was asked to work for a union making twice what I make now I would take it in a heartbeat. I am not against Unions, you should re-read this post and try to comprehend a litte better. My father is a union member, in fact president of the local, my only point I am trying to get across on this post is that the UAW was a big part of the reason the big 3 are in so much trouble. Yes the workers are overpaid, but I never said they were dumb or stupid. Everyone else, even you Mac, Im not against unions, do I need to say that a little slower next time "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 21, 2008 3:39 PM:

" And, Mac, Limbaugh is not against unions. For once in your life get your facts straight. It is misinformed and ill informed folk like you that have caused a lot of tis country's problems. JFK said "ask not what your country can do for you etc." You could get your self educated and it would do a lot to help this country. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 21, 2008 3:36 PM:

" The unions, Mac, have driven up the costs for the big three. That is one reason, and a big one it is, they are not selling cars. I do not know why you people can't get it through your thick skulls that they can't afford to pay the unions what they have been paying and still sell their product. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 21, 2008 3:34 PM:

" I do not know why the CEOs of the auto makers are being criticized for flying to DC in their corporate jets. We should be happy they have poor PR because it stopped the bailout this time. And maybe they don't want a bailout and that is why they acted the way they did. I hope next time they tell Confgrees to go do something to themselves. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:58 AM:

" mac1974 let me say thank you,people have it in their heads if you belong to a umion, your lazy,dumb, can''t do anything except turn a bolt, it's not tlike that, I worked with collage grads, side by side on the assembly, line, I know hard work, I grew up on a grade A dariy fram,for 55 years my family was in the dariy bussiness, 1984 I got the chance to wok for Chrysler, I took it,yes better pay,family farrms are a thing of the past, just like most of the jobs we're loosing overseas.I loved your imput.where does it stop?My job,yours, your neighbor, where???? "

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Mac1974 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:40 AM:

" I worked in a union shop from 92' to 97'. I did NOT join the union. I examined both sides and found it not to be in my best interest.

If it would have been?

SIGN ME UP!!!!!!! "

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Mac1974 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:39 AM:

" If you ignorant, neo-conservative, ideologues want to pound your fists in support of destroying the livelyhood of thousands and thousands of HONEST, HARDWORKING, GOOD, AMERICANS...... at least go to school and learn something about unions and the collective bargaining process.

All I ever friggin hear is," Well, unions were good at one time, but now they're bad."

You ask them why and this is what comes out of their piehole, "Hey, I was listening to Rush Limbaugh the other day."

RALPHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

It's getting so old! "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:39 AM:

" I know for a fact that my Union father was educated enough to look at the Union contract before he voted on it. Not many people do... just like many don't really dig into the person they voted for in this past election... yeah, this person looks like "this" so I'll vote for them. People need to be knowledgeable enough to dig into what the person supports/doesn't support before they vote. They should have to take a test for all I care so when they don't pass, they don't vote.... sorry. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:36 AM:

" Mac, where've you been man. I agree with you to a certain extent. I believe the reason these people believe in the Union is because (for my husband) they remember what the place was like and how the company treated them before the Union came in. AND, if the Union were to be voted out, they know (and have had upper management tell them) of what could happen to them if they happen to be a Union supporter. Don't think for a second that when the contracts come up for a vote certain people aren't whispering in ears "better look out". "

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Mac1974 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:35 AM:

" I have a friend in JC who worked for a union shop for 30 years. He started the day after he graduated and he made good money.

My point is, he really never knew anything else. He didn't make it his business to research salaries of other people so he could brag about how much money he made. All he knew was that he worked hard and made an honest living.

Now, just think what it would be like if you were that man and someone came along and said, "I hate unions and I believe you should have half of your salary stripped since you belong to one."

Honestly-folks,-should-these-people-be-turned-into-the-sacrificial-lambs-for-an-ideology-that-even-YOU-TRULY-don't-understand? "

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Mac1974 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:30 AM:

" It's because this ridiculous anti-union ideology is just that! It's ridiculous nonsense and when it comes down to the nitty gritty, they know in their hearts that it's a bad idea to chop these people's salaries in half and give it to the rich. Don't you ever believe for a second that they don't know that.

In my experiences, most people who go on and on and on about unions are just parrots. They really know absolutely nothing about the collective bargaining process and don't realize that there really are benefits on both sides.

All I can say is..... come on Fairness Doctrine! "

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Mac1974 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 11:24 AM:

" Mommy said, "I find it interesting that the very people that call names on this blog refuse to answer my question"

And they won't answer your question. You have been designated the sacrificial lamb, Mommy. This is the fundamental difference between Dems and Repubs. Here's a scenario for you.....

Let us assume ODF and/or jclocal are making half as much as these union car makers. They are offered a job at a union plant, which will double their salary. Will they take it?

They'd not only take it, they'd be wearing "Proud Member of the XYZ Union" shirts every time they left their house.

You know why we still have unions? "

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boxergal wrote on Nov 21, 2008 8:41 AM:

" I love old GenX's post - Yea....I love, love my mazda sports car and my toyota that hardly uses any gas. LOVE. And there is literally no maintenence. While the big old depreciating Ford truck sits in the drive all lonesome. Gonna be a cold lonely winter for my American made vehicle. "

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boxergal wrote on Nov 21, 2008 8:33 AM:

" The point is...we can live without your cars. And we are. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 7:58 AM:

" I find it interesting that the very people that call names on this blog refuse to answer my question.... Actually, I think it's funny to see someone duck and run when faced with a true to the times question. Now, they'll probably get back on the story and defend themselves by saying they're "done" then immediately blog again, but my questions stands. If you/anyone doesn't have the nerve to answer it, then just tell me. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 6:52 AM:

" I still don't understand U.A.W. BASHING they didn't fly to D.C. in fancy jets, that's a big problem that has to be adressed. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 21, 2008 6:41 AM:

" bosco, I am a certified welder, where are those jobs now,without moving all over the country.trying to raise a family and provide a stable life for young kids. "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 20, 2008 9:16 PM:

" "We have plenty of degreed students coming out of college but where are the good paying jobs? I find you a little condescending to the working people of this state. "


No argument abut the college. Way too many people see college as the way to success, but then graduate with $50,000 student loans and then have to go to Tech School or Community College to get skills to get a job.

Skills is the operative word here. A certified welder may be worth $30 an hour. A UAW bolt turner sure isn't worth that.

I may be condescending, but I am working. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 20, 2008 7:38 PM:

" We are a nation of fools. We elect someone as President most people know nothing about. A man, with a smile, that hangs out with people that hate this country. We hand out billions of dollars we don't have and want to hand out more. The big three car companies are finished. They cannot overcome their situation without bankruptcy. They must get out from under the onerous contracts to be competitive. Wake up people or we will all go down with the ship. And no one will be able to help anyone. "

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Wspahn wrote on Nov 20, 2008 6:55 PM:

" Boscoe, what you say is true,however you can look on the door panel and it will tell you where the auto is made and also the sticker on the window tells you what % of the vehicle is made in the USA. And what if the worker is an educated assembly line worker? Do they make more or should they they take their masters degree and go work for less pay as a teacher or some other job that is unwilling to pay for their knowledge level. We have plenty of degreed students coming out of college but where are the good paying jobs? I find you a little condescending to the working people of this state. "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 20, 2008 6:11 PM:

" Unionized State Workers is another huge joke. How has the union really benefited prison guards who only make $22k salary, get treated like dirt, and who put their lives in harm's way every day?

Unions only help the people who run the unions, or else the Hoffas and other organized criminals. "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 20, 2008 6:08 PM:

" Ha! All this patriotic talk about Big 3 automakers and buying US cars: Don't you people realize that many Big 3 cars are built in Mexico and Canada?

Many of the parts for the ones built in the US are made with foriegn parts, like the German transmission in my Ford pickup.

Sure, the CEOs are overpaid, the management is horrible, but having non-educated, unskilled factory workers earning over $80,000 a year is totally insane. Pay 'em what they are worth- no more than $20 an hour, and I'll bet the Big 3 automakers will start becoming profitable again. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 5:24 PM:

" jclocal, as far as a union member where I worked doing poor quality work, once you were warned and wrote up for it, they did not back you, their jobs were on the line also.and you hit the road if this did not improve.I do agree about mismanagement, that is one thing I agree on as far as correcting that one big issue,to big a salary, bonuses,severance pay, shouldn't happen in the first place, nobody is worth that much money in one year,it has to stop.and I'm all for it "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 5:16 PM:

" wsphan, my hat is off to you, you see things in real perspective, "

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Wspahn wrote on Nov 20, 2008 4:52 PM:

" As far as Union's go, I worked at a factory for 15 years that was non-union. It wasn't that great of working conditions, the hours were long and safety was bad. The workers talked a lot of going union which upset the management a lot, even though our factory was making money hand over fist. So even though we were not union we kept close to the other union factories wages. So while I was not union I rode the backs of the union workers who fought for better safety and wages, unions still indirectly benefited me. There was no way my company would have paid me any where near a living wage if they didn't have to. "

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Wspahn wrote on Nov 20, 2008 4:40 PM:

" I have always driven American made cars and trucks since the mid 70's. I buy them usually new, and drive them at least 170,000 miles. I have owned 9 of them over the years and have NEVER had 1 engine rebuilt. They have been good to me and I will continue to buy them as long as possible. It is out of my love for our country and our nations workforce. A large amount of this countries workers are underpaid, so instead of focusing on what they can do to try to increase their wages they attack other workers who are doing better. The CEO'S and upper management love this. The workers who make this country run, need to work together and stop the backbiting. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 3:49 PM:

" Local, my story comes straight out of Jefferson City. My question is more geared to tickle the minds of people who do not support Unions. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with them 100%, but If you read my story and what I ask, I really want people to give alternative options to those effected by the companies ill management. It's today's post around 9:30ish "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 20, 2008 3:13 PM:

" mommy, you talking about what just happened at Hubbel or the car and truck plants in stl and kc? "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 2:58 PM:

" and where's your proof that you're right and I'm wrong... hence your "false information" comment. Hey, I know exactly what's going on locally and all I want from you is your take on it and your solution. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 2:56 PM:

" But you're dodging my question.... why? "

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ODF wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:56 PM:

" Oh I know how to take a joke...make them all the time and take them all the time. However, I don't like being called out on a public board, especially with false information. Seems to me that maybe you can dish it out but can't take it! :)

In the end, it's all good...this is the internet, it's not real life, it's just entertainment. :) "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:44 PM:

" There are lots of union workers that know they have big brother to turn to should anything happen to them, that in turn causes the union workers to not want to strive to do their jobs better knowing they have someone to back them up no matter how bad of an employee they are. "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:42 PM:

" Mommyof2, my father is a union representative so I know where you are coming from. Unions were put into place to save jobs, I have no problem with that. My problem comes with the outrageous wages that are being paid out, the outstanding benefits, and the 100% funded retiree pension, all that is not needed. Like I said, if they got rid of all the workers, they would have a line around the block of people willing to work for $15.00/hr and mediocre benefits. Unions can be good, but they could also be very harmful if let go too far. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:35 PM:

" JC, that question is posed to you too. Take the bailout out of the story... focus on the many comments about the Union and YOU tell ME what these employees should do.... walk out.... take it to upper management.... give me ideas. Who is standing up for these local employees while their company bends them over? "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:33 PM:

" ODF, you wouldn't know how to take a joke.... JEEZ. But you didn't answer the question I posed. That was a straight forward question, no behind the back punches. Just a question. Will you be willing to give me your opinion on the scenario I gave earlier. Look you and I both know we disagree, but give me a solution if you have one. You call me and daddy a fine pair. Just because we agree (which if I'm not mistaken, I believe me and YOU have agreed on some matters) we're such bad people. I support it, you don't.... just answer my question above. I'm interested to see what you have to say. Seriously "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:31 PM:

" Mommyof2, I'm not anit-union, but you and I both know that the union has well pushed the envelope too far, putting the very people they stand for out of work! They need to quit being so pushy and go back to basics of why they are around, not to be a powerhouse intimidate the big 3. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:23 PM:

" Daddy - Just to alleviate your concerns about all your hard-earned tax dollars (which I'm sure you paid since you were an overpaid line worker for the auto industry) I am not currently a state employee. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:12 PM:

" Mommy - Do you know me? Do you know where I work? Do you know my work hours/schedule? Do you even know IF I am employed? The answer to all those questions is "no"....so you only look foolish making assumptions. Mommy and daddy...what a "fine" pair. LOL!!

When you ASSUme...you usually end up looking foolish. At least I take the time to research things, find out facts before I spew off-handed, inaccurate and WRONG information...unlike you who prefers to fling mud to see what sticks. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:08 PM:

" Ahhh.... I love it.....throwing stones at the state workers because you don't like our opinions. On-line editor has warned folks about throwing accusations and pretending to think you know (or accuse) people of being Mr. X or being employed with so-and-so...apparently you missed that.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings because you are paid WAY more than you deserve for the work you do. I'm also sorry that your easy, gravy train is leaving the station, but you should be thankful for what you had not spiteful to others because you are losing it.

I'm done. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 12:20 PM:

" ODF,MOMMYOF2 do either of you work for the state?iF SO, IS THAT WHERE MY TAX DOLLARS ARE GOING? "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 12:20 PM:

" I post this question to all of you who are anti-union. Given the scenario that I gave to you this morning that is real and happening in this town, what do you believe the workers of this company should do? What would happen to them if the Union wasn't there to go to bat for them? "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 12:06 PM:

" odf, I understand your time and cost to get a 4 year degree, and I congraulate you for it, BUT why is it you only get as you say one-half the wages an auto-worker gets.Is collage all that great now days, what about tech-schools, I think they are GREAT. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 12:02 PM:

" Sorry ODF, I had been holding that one in for a while and was about to burst... ya know I love ya man (that is, if you're a man)!!! Maybe we should switch the subject.... Man is it cold outside!!! LOL!!! "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 12:00 PM:

" ODF, talk about wasting money, you've spent more time "researching" and posting number than you have worked in the past 3 days. HHHMMM who's screwing who here? "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 11:57 AM:

" once again, if you READ the last contract, it now states core and non-core jobs, non core jobs are janitor, matreial drivers, inspection,anything that does NOT touch a unit, core jobs are lineworkers, repair,heavyhole,as far as strikes, only if differances can't be worked out a local leavel, intrernational makes that call only as a last resort, also non-core jobs are half the pay as line workers, the company makes that call "

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OldGenX wrote on Nov 20, 2008 11:44 AM:

" Chevys: Manifold gaskets (both), Head gaskets (both), new heads (van), alternator bearings (Truck), Peeling paint (Truck), Transmission twice (Van), Air conditioner (van), Water pump twice(Van), Electrical shorts (van). Problems started for the truck at apx 40,000 traded it in at appx 60,000. Problems started for the van at apx 40,000 traded it in at 170,000.
Kia: Still under warranty.
You can see which one I don't want bailed out. "

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OldGenX wrote on Nov 20, 2008 11:43 AM:

" For what its worth, In our adult lives my wife and I have owned 2 Chevys (Truck, Van), 2 Fords (Car, SUV), 2 Dodges (Car, Truck) and we recently got a Kia van.
Major Repairs:
Fords: The SUV was a manual and had to have the clutch replaced at aprx 105,000, sold it a 117,000 no problems. Car, no problems but we only had it for 40,000 miles.
Dodges: Car needed a fuel pump but was still under warranty, traded it at apx 85,000 miles. Truck, one front wheel bearing at apx 90,000 have 108,000 on it now. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 20, 2008 11:10 AM:

" I just put numbers to paper. I graduated from high school and have a 4 year degree from a university and I make just over HALF of what an average UAW line worker earns. My sympathy for the decades old UAW and Detroit problems just went out the window. And all this to produce an inferior, gas suckling product. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:59 AM:

" Very good point jc...if there's a no strike clause, then why has there been strikes? "

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ODF wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:58 AM:

" Quote from a worker: "I work at Chrysler and we make the same as Toyota and Honda workers in the US,around $28.00 per hour."

I'm curious...what other virtuallty unskilled position (short of professional sports, which you don't want to get me started on) earns $28 an hour??

Autoworkers make almost $30/hour, CEO's earn MILLIONS in bonuses and fly around the country/world on private jets to the tune of TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars per trip. Now they want OUR money and OUR sympathy for their years of mismanagment, overspending, and overpaying workers?? NO! The more I research this...the more ridiculous it looks! "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:58 AM:

" daddyat55 wrote "that no srtike clause has been in effect for the last 20 years, where ya been? "

What about the American Axle workers that striked back in April 2008? Or what about the UAW strike against GM back in Sept 2007? I mean no strike clauses as in, you CANT strike unless in contract negotiatons. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:54 AM:

" As defined by the current United Auto Worker contract negotiated with the "Big Five" (GM, Ford, Chrysler, and top parts makers Delphi and Visteon), an auto "production worker" is a job description that covers anything from mowing grass to cleaning the toilets. In the real world, these jobs would be outsourced to $8 an hour, no-benefit wage earners, but on Planet Big Five, these jobs get the same wages as any auto line-worker: an average $26 an hour ($60,000 a year) plus benefits that bring the company's total cost per worker to a staggering $65 an hour. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:52 AM:

" This is what the union does for the auto (and many other industries) that causes a strain on the competitiveness of manufacturers. Essentially, non college educated, unskilled workers making $28 - $65 an hour!!!

According to the Indianapolis Star:
Base wages average about $28 an hour. GM officials say the average reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Health-care, pension and other benefits average another $33.58 an hour, GM says. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:51 AM:

" jclocal, that no srtike clause has been in effect for the last 20 years, where ya been? "

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ODF wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:44 AM:

" mommyof2 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 9:27 AM:
That Union is there to protect the worker from unfair acts... "

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. Did you see the Labor Day parade? One union had a RAT float to signify either nonunion workers or nonunion employees. That same union is pressing for passage of a bill that would RESTRICT nonunion employees from tax funded (public) projects. In other words, a nonunion, taxpaying construction worker would not be able to work on a job that HIS tax $$ heliped finance.
So please, don't tell us that unions are all that and a bag of chips...because they are not about protecting workers. They are about ONLY proecting-union-dues-paying-workers-and-fighting-for-only-what-is-in-the-union's-best-interest. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:34 AM:

" jclocal,I have a grip, if it weren't for unions striving to get better wages for their workers, do you think your employer would pay your wages where they are today, without a guide line to keep you there, it's proven fact without unions the mminum wage would still be lower thatn it is today. "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:22 AM:

" I'm not blaming the workers for this mess, they are only doing what their told to, and Im not blaming this completely on the unions, a big part though. These 3 are going to go down because of a bad business model, bad management, and the UAW contracts. "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:21 AM:

" Mommyof2 said "That Union is there to protect the worker from unfair acts... "

Yes unions were put into place to protect workers, but in time Unions have went past that motto, and have turned into bullying companys to get what they want, it has gone past the point of looking out for workers to looking out for themselves. If they were truely looking out for the worker they would cut their pay in half, give decent healthcare, not outstanding, 8 hour shifts, and no strike clauses. But because the unions fought and fought for better and better they have partly pushed these companies back into a corner.... "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 9:28 AM:

" Now, you can preach that you don't like the Union all day, that's absolutely your opinion, but believe you me, I sleep a little better at night knowing that this particular issue will be brought to the Unions attention soon. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 9:27 AM:

" The COMPANY is refusing to give the employees time to learn the new machine, therefore their "rate" lowers considerably from maybe 95% to 60%. AND, when they work overtime, they fill the holes on the empty machines, MACHINES THEY REALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO RUN BECAUSE THE COMPANY HAS NEVER TRAINED THEM. Ok, did you all follow me? Now, what is the person to do that got the letter? Is this what you would want looming over your families head? The fact that the upper management can't manage, and because of that, your family member could be demoted or loose their job? Come on people. That Union is there to protect the worker from unfair acts... "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 9:23 AM:

" Ok, after a conversation with my husband last night about his UNION facility, let me give you something to think about. A local company (and if you all have ever paid attention to my previous posts, you know what company I'm talking about). Many employees recently received letters indicating they were not making their "rate" on their job. This is the company's way of saying speed it up, which to some is a motivater. Now, the company is not taking in to account that the machines that many machines that the employees are using have been "idle'd... meaning these SAME employees are having to learn a new machine... guess what "

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ODF wrote on Nov 20, 2008 8:53 AM:

" The unions served a very useful pupose, at one time. In today's workforce they serve virtually no purpose for 98% of the jobs/workforce.

Don't a lot of state employees have union representation? Yet we are what, 49th or 50th, in national pay. So what are those employees getting for their union dues.

Have you seen the AFSCME union commercials touting "their" success in getting that home health care bill passed. Are you kidding me? I never saw ONE ad for/against that bill and only knew about it because I educate myself on the ballot issues. NOW they want to coattail on it's passage implying it was passed with their support? "

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ODF wrote on Nov 20, 2008 8:47 AM:

" daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 19, 2008 4:05 PM:
"... just don't blame the lineworker, to him, it's a job, ...why don't they make car that gets better milage. don't tell me they can't.....If you don't help auto companys, don't help anybody "

I agree 100% with those statements. I was against the first bailout and I disagreed with the economic stimulus payments. The govt. giving people free money (OUR TAX MONEY) ... is against the basic principles that this country was founded on....not to mention we don't need to be adding to the national debt. "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 20, 2008 7:40 AM:

" Daddyat55 you need to get a grip, if you think the only reason people are earning better than minimum wage is because of unions you are wrong. I make quite a bit past minimum wage and we dont have a union here, never had one. There are many industries that thrive and pay their workers very well, all without the help of a union. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 20, 2008 7:08 AM:

" boscoe,you made the comment auto plants in Mexco were doing well, let me enlighten you on some facts, the average worker in Mexco makes 3.65 per day, talk about injustice, oh they do provide free lunch, I don't agree with this but it's fact.the average worker for foriegn automanufacturing quits after 4 to 5 years, the turn over is high, because no guide lines, low pay, no retirement, no health coverage,the list goes on,that's whats going to happen to the American Auto Companys. If it happens there, it will happen everwhere, say what you want but,if it weren't for Unions, EVERBODY would be working for minum wage. "

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boxergal wrote on Nov 19, 2008 5:41 PM:

" OH yea, and the only reason we kept the truck is that its worth NOTHING now. Build it better and they will come. Until then I don't care if they bail them out. They made their beds. "

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boxergal wrote on Nov 19, 2008 5:38 PM:

" We own a Ford truck and two foreign cars. A Toyota and a Mazda. And yes I know that some Mazdas have ford engines, however mine was built in Hiroshima. I wouldn't give you a plug nickle anymore for an American car. My husband compared maintenence schedules on the truck and toyota. The maintenence alone on the truck will break ya. Build a better car and I am not talking the expensive Volt that they have planned. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 19, 2008 5:30 PM:

" shinymcshine don't you ever read ther paper? the last conctract, signed last Oct, the big three got what they wanted, 2teir pay, no insurance, no retirement, no raises for 3 years, cut in benifits for the ones working now,don't blame this on the UAW,we have had consessions for the last 5 years.we did are part, now go back and point the finger at corporate bigshots. When Diamler boght Chrysler, the top CEO of Chrysler walked away with 100 million, then retired, UAW had nothing to do with this. "

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shinymcshine wrote on Nov 19, 2008 4:20 PM:

" The UAW has priced them out of business. Watch 'em squeal when they try to renegotiate the contracts. You can't expect the American public to keep paying the UAW's contract wages when they can buy better products for better prices.
Mismanagement is not unique to the car companies. Union greed and strongarming is at least as much to blame. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 19, 2008 4:15 PM:

" boscoe, last summer, ST. Louis South was retooled at a cost of 500 million, for flex manufacturing,the city of Fenton gave them one big taxbreak, even went so far as paying for some of the equptment.WE could run 3 or 4 different car on the same line, at the same time. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 19, 2008 4:05 PM:

" odf,I do agree with you about mismanagement, CEOs excess pay,bonuses, they all need to be jerked out of office, I could tell you things that would make your blood boil, just don't blame the lineworker, to him, it's a job, and living,I do agree they should have had higer milage cars, like I have said for years, they can send a man to the moon, why don't they make car that gets better milage. don't tell me they can't..If you don't help auto companys, don't help anybody "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 19, 2008 3:54 PM:

" boscoe, do you read MAG MAGAZINE? I worked for Chrysler for 25 years and NEVER made 82,000 in one year nor did I have 180,00 in benifits,be real, the most I ever made one year was 65,000 working 6,7 days a week 9, 10 hour days,I would love know where all this money went if I made it, my taxreturn never showed it. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 19, 2008 2:58 PM:

" mommy - It's too bad that your father will feel the brunt of this...but like I said earlier, I'm willing to bet everyone one of us will either have a friend, family member or acquaintance that will be affected if US automakers go under. I have/had friends that work at plants that supply things to/for auto industry and they will feel the effects too. However, feeling bad for their situation does not mean we should allow a few companies to continue to be a drain on the entire economy and tax payers.
Bottom line, if there had been TRUE mgmt. and leadership in these companies, they would not bein the position they are now. Bad decisions have consequences. "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 19, 2008 2:50 PM:

" Mommyof 2, It's unfortunate that your father is in this mess, flat out there are going to be people that lose jobs, but the fact of the matter is, is that these 3 companies need to fall before they can rise again, learn from mistakes and put the right business model into practice to make sure it doesnt happen again. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 19, 2008 2:36 PM:

" JC - my father is the "little guy" so this hits me a little harder than anyone else on this post. "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 19, 2008 2:05 PM:

" I understand your worried about the little guy mommyof2, they are going to be the ones that get hit hardest by this. The fact is we cannot keep providing funds for these businesses that dont change their business plan according to an ever changing consumer demand, when they learn how to do that then great, until then they need to fall out of their comfort zones so they can truely see how they have run their businesses into the ground. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 19, 2008 1:58 PM:

" Wait, I'm still for the bailout. Just agree with the CEO comments. Sometimes my eyes can't seem to catch up with my brain. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 19, 2008 1:57 PM:

" ODF, I agree 100% with your last post. My heart goes out to all those who couldn't take the retirement package and who have to wait in limbo to see what happens...... Guess I care too much about the little guy at the bottom stuck holding the bag. Have a goodn' "

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ODF wrote on Nov 19, 2008 12:40 PM:

" Just heard over lunch...head of GM (I believe it was) flew in his PRIVATE JET to the hearings in D.C. to ask for bailout funds to the tune of $20,000 vs. a $288 roundtrip, coach seat on Southwest Airlines.
This is EXACTLY why the mindset of Detroit manufacturer's and EXACTLY why I am against bailout funds. These CEO's and upper mgmt. have no concept of the average person or any semblance of common sense.
If you're going to D.C. to ask for public money to save your company, you do not blow an unnecessary $19,712 to do it! "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 19, 2008 12:01 PM:

" Very well said, ODF. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 19, 2008 10:54 AM:

" We'll just have to agree to disagree on this, mommy. But facts and common sense should tell you that if US was putting out "what the consumer wanted" then Toyota would never have surpassed them and US auto companies would not have been struggling since the 1970's. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 19, 2008 10:53 AM:

" mommy - For the last time, they are NOT dying on what the consumer wanted. If the consumer really wanted what American automakers were putting out, then they would be booming and Toyota wouldn't be #1. American automakers clung to their old ways, putting out a less than superior vehicle that could not compete with foreign autos, on many levels. US automakers continued their stale, tired ways and clung to the fact that a small segment of the population would continue to buy their product.
But the bottom line, if Detroit was truly putting out what the majority of the consumers wanted, they would NOT be in the position they are now. "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 19, 2008 10:41 AM:

" Maybe they can go to one of the new Toyota, Honda, or Subaru plants to find a job.

GM, Ford, and Chysler's plants in Mexico and Canada are also doing better.

There ARE options.

Don't blame me because the average UAW worker makes too much money. I can't help it. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 19, 2008 10:06 AM:

" ODF, they're dying on what the consumer wanted. And as for the CNN comment, that is a slap in the face of so many people that it isn't even funny. Boscoe, do you think that the people actually working the assembly line are just stupid and can't get another job? I'm assuming because you posted the quote, you believe it? "

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ODF wrote on Nov 19, 2008 9:32 AM:

" One other point....since so many of the "American" factories have autos, or parts of autos, manufactured across our borders how are we to ensure that the $25billion bail out will benefit ONLY American plants on American soil? We couldn't even guarantee that CEO's wouldn't take lavish trips after receiving bailout $$ or that the feds do the right thing, the thing they PROMISED to do, when they pused for the $700billion bailout?

Bailouts are a JOKE and contrary to the way this country was founded and grew. Stop the handouts...companies will live or die based on the CONSUMER, as it should be. "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 19, 2008 7:47 AM:

" Instead of giving bail-out money to the automakers, how about giving taxpayers each a $5,000 rebate for buying a new car to stimulate demand for car sales?

Don't pour anymore money down the automaker's toilets. They need to restructure and substially change their business model first.

Why pay unskilled, uneducated workers $82,000 a year salary + benefits = 180,000 a year total for the average UAW worker. (cnn) "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 4:37 PM:

" odf. saturn is a joint venture between GM and a jap company and as far as Chrysler shutting Fenton plant, some of the top exs at Chrysler had family who work at Windsor and live just across the street, want proof???I could name names but throwing stones won't bring back Fenton, one thing we both agree on, we are both bullheaded and I won't budge and neither will you so, so enough said, been there, done that. "

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naturally wrote on Nov 18, 2008 3:59 PM:

" Saturns are a very good quality for budget price. They had to work out some kinks in the mid-'90s but now they are dependable. I know an automotive repair owner that buys them for his family. They get about 35mpg for the 2-door sedan.
They are a good example of made in USA quality. glad you asked "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 3:43 PM:

" Very good point jc. Many foreign brand vehicles are now manufactured in the US and many US brands are not. I just didn't have the interest to actually look up #'s and such.

However, where is Saturn in all this bailout mess? Saturn, if I remember correctly, is truly an American brand, made in America. They offer good looking cars, with good sticker mileage. Unsure about reliability as I have never owned one. But seems to me that Saturn is an example of what Detroit should have done DECADES ago! "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 3:41 PM:

" BTW...I owned a 1980 Datsun that had close to 350,000 on it when I sold it...and it still ran like a top and got almost 30mpg. I current have a Nissan that has almost 250,000 on it. I have also owned Nissan and Toyota pickups that each went over 200,000......ALL with no major engine work and only one that had transmission issues.
There's not enough space on one comment, with 500 word maximum, to list the American vehicles and list of repairs. LOL!! "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 18, 2008 3:40 PM:

" Chrysler closed the Fenton, Missouri minivan plant to save the Windsor, Ontario minivan assembly plant. Wonder why? Maybe Windsor has lower costs and higher quality than Fenton UAW workers... "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 18, 2008 3:25 PM:

" Daddy of 5, you should know better spouting off about Chrysler being American made, if so how come my Dodge Ram says it was manufactured in Mexico? Chrysler has 3 Assembly plants in Mexico and 3 assembly plants in Canada, almost half of all their cars are manufactured OUTSIDE of the US so save your breath about being better cause they are American made, cause alot of them are not. Over half of Toyota's cars are manufactured in the USA, those cars are now more American than Chrysler sir. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 3:20 PM:

" You can occasionally find a diamond in a pile of coal....but until the last few years, American autos that ran 100,000+ without a rebuild were rare. I know, because I owned several of them.

To each their own....but you can not honestly deny that Detroit has been on the ropes for YEARS...a little research and education will convince you if nothing else will. The time for them to chnage was 10, 15, 20 ++ years ago. I will not support, nor encourage my congressional representatives to support a bailout of the failed US auto industry. This is not socialist USA...it's a captialistic and free market society. Not everyone can succeed and they shouldn't need propping up on tax $$. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 2:49 PM:

" odf, it sounds like you work for a place that doesn't have benifits, health, retirement ,or if you do why do expect the autoworkers to not have it, and by the way, they won't before long, they pay for health, retirement, but is it going to make the cars any cheaper?? bet not, and as for as wages, they are going to get cut in half.I drove an 89 Dodge van hauling riders, when i got rid of it it had 244 thousand miles and still never used any oil between changes, guss what??? MADE IN U.S.A. "

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msindependent wrote on Nov 18, 2008 2:36 PM:

" Bond just lost my vote. How can he support this nosense and call himself a republican? Sad. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 2:26 PM:

" Like I said, Toyota did not get to be #1 in the past 12 months when oil spiked...it was a concerted effort to offer more efficient, better designed alternatives to American production cars....and autos that the general public liked and wanted to buy. American automakers COULD have made more reliable/dependable vehicles and better alternatives...they chose not to and they are ONCE AGAIN paying the price for their stubborness. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 2:25 PM:

" mommy - I certainly am not referring to the line workers and other front line employees as pig-headed. They are only putting out the product they are instructed to. I'm referring to management, upper managment, CEO's etc.. Look, deny it or not, but US Automakers have been tanking for years with little change or move away from their basic products. When they did offer alternatives to the behemoths they were the rattle/death traps like the Pintos, Pacers, etc.. They were a joke alternative. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 1:46 PM:

" Sorry ODF, I might have gotten a little carried away with that last one but as long as you're pointing fingers at the big wigs, I'm all for it. It's not the peson's fault that spends 40 - 60 hours on an assembly line that is to blame. Have you ever worked in a factory? Trust me, it's not fun. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 1:42 PM:

" ODF, if you're referring to the people getting their hands dirty ON the assembly line "pig-headed", then you've crossed the line with me and what respect I did have for you is gone. As daddy 55 said, it's the people FAR above them that makes the decisions and tells the auto industry what to make and when. Sorry, That one got me fired up! "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 1:37 PM:

" daddy - That's exactly my point...if there was a domestic auto that was as reliable, service-free and efficient as foreign, I would own one in a heartbeat. Detroit COULD be competitive with foregin automakers, but they have chosen not to be. Therefore, I will choose to spend my automotive dollar on the best deal...unfortunately that is foreign.
I have owned American and I'd say, on average, they were in the shop at twice the rate the foreign cars have been.
As long as American automakers want to be pig-headed in what they offer consumers, I will continue to buy foreign and they will continue to struggle, IF they survive at all. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 1:31 PM:

" so go ahead and buy foriegn, while you're at it, make sure everything is from other countries, then when your kids grow up and don't have a job,go ahead and thank yourself so voting for another domistic company to go under. come on people, this isn't another handout,and by the way, Chrysler paid back a one billion dollar loan in 3 months, don't say it can't be done "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 1:25 PM:

" ok, let me adress this to all, I have worked 25 years building cars, minivans, yes I made good money, but lets stop there, do you know every plantmanager get 1$ bonus per car that comes off the line, also we have supervisors, general supervisors.area managers,the list goes on up to the plant manager don't put the blame on the workers, put it on management, there is so much dead weight who all revieve very good checks, talk about collage degrees, I've seen degrees in art running a line, that has nothing to do with building cars, I can tell you, people on the line know more about how it should than those idits. That is part of the down fall, and I'll admit it.go "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:58 PM:

" wearescrewed - The Constitution is only dead if we give up...and I for one will not. So many people, even on these forums, are content to say "oh well" or just bend over and take it. Not me. I'm 40-something...it would not surprise me if there was an uprising in my son's life or my grandchilrens'. Sooner or later, people WILL get sick of the govt, again. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:56 PM:

" Naturally...what I want to see is a return to the good old days...when the US was a industry giant, when we MADE the things the world wanted and we could name our price for it. Those days are gone, as is much of US industry. I'm not sure what the leaders of this country expect us to do when we come a consumer only country. While I'd hate to see Detroit fail...I think bankruptcy, restructuring, retooling and employing A LOT of common sense is in order. Bailing them out will not make them do any of those things. "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:49 PM:

" out from underneath the rediculous wages and pensions they are paying out. GM losesupwards of 1,300 dollars per car on average because of what the retiree pensions and workers wages cost them. They need to start fresh, and be smart about it, paying $29.00/hr to start is rediculous, because any day out of the year GM would have a line of people outside wanting a job if they cut that salary in half. "

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jclocal wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:43 PM:

" Mommyof2, I was raised in a Union household also. Union CAN be a good thing, but they can also have a reverse affect. The UAW has well outstepped its boundries, and the very union that was made to protect workers is now hurting the company that is employing those workers. I am totally against this bailout, I think there are other ways they can get things done without sticking their hand out. For one the UAW needs to sit down with all three and renegotiate terms to lower cost, if they are truely looking out for the workers they would be doing this right? And if that does work then the big 3 need to file chapter 11 to get "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 12:25 PM:

" You are good... well, not really but I never said your opinion doesn't count. Just don't stand inside your glass house when you've never been in my shoes and not expect me to fire back. This is opinion based, and though I believe yours is incorrect, it's still yours. Do you always believe you're right? If you do, my sympathies. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 18, 2008 11:45 AM:

" The constitution is dead, naturally. If that wasn't apparent before November 4 it should be now. And if it isn't to you now it will be by November 2010. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 18, 2008 11:42 AM:

" mommyof2, the problem with the auto industry was not high gas prices although that hurt. It also is not the down turn in the economy although that hurt, too. They have weathered those storms before. The problem is they have too much costs that they can't get out from under. And those costs are going to increase. It is not going to change unless they go Chapter 11. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 18, 2008 11:39 AM:

" So, mommyof2, only people that have been in a union can comment on union activities and consequences of union actions? Using that logicI suppose you must believe no one should criticize the president unless themselves have been president and know the in and outs of the job. It makes no sense. "

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naturally wrote on Nov 18, 2008 10:24 AM:

" i understand and respect your opinion ODF.
I'm just tired of Mac and his continual bashing of anything American. There is no secret he would like to see a global economy. And anything that would further that cause is the soapbox he stands on. I prefer not to dilute what our Constitution stands for. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 9:56 AM:

" ODF, Union has put food on my table (not yours) for 20+ years so I chose to support them, allbe it not all of their beliefs. I will agree to disagree with you on some of your statements (gotta love opinions). it's just a shame to see the trickle down effect if this bailout doesn't happen. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 9:30 AM:

" One last thing....tout unions and benefits all you want...but if we don't step up and put a stop to the BS that has been going on in this country, we will ALL be working for China, Japan, Middle East, etc.. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 9:28 AM:

" I understand your defense of the auto industry and unions as it has supported your family. However, that does not mean they are perfect or that your assertions that unions are good and Detroit is only producing what we want are accurate. Facts are that Detroit has been tanking for YEARS, prior to oil hitting $147/barrel and that unions are not for EVERY worker and often push for laws to EXCLUDE workers.
I'm done.... "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 9:26 AM:

" BS mommy...that's what they want you to believe. A small segment of the population still wanted big SUV's, etc. But increasingly, a lot of the population when to better designed, more efficient, better looking vehicles than they old behemoths that Detroit put out.
If the general public wanted Detroit vehicles then why did Toyota pass up all of them? LOL!! Detroit didn't die in the last 12 months when oil rose...they've been bleeding for years...for DECADES. How many times has Chrysler been in the tank? How many times have the others been in trouble? Yeah, sure, America wants land cruisers..that's why Detroit has tanked for YEARS! LOL!! "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 9:23 AM:

" Unions had their place at one time. We have enough oversight and labor laws now that they are mostly ineffective. I was in one (by requirement) and they are pointless. Beyond that they want to RESTRICT nonunion workers from things like prevailing wage jobs, etc. Are you kiodding me? The unions...who claim to be for the workers...actually want to EXCLUDE tax paying workers because they don't pay union dues. Bullies...that's all they are. If you don't like that opinion, that's too bad. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 9:21 AM:

" Naturally...I'm not bashing their quality so much. Although for YEARS it was common to have to have an american auto engine rebuilt by 100,000, when jap engines were going over twice that. But it's not the quality as it is their adherence to the old ways....making big, heavy vehicles, with V-8's, low fuel effienciency, etc., and their only fuel efficient "alternatives" were dangerous rattle traps. They could still be in competition with the foreign automakers if they'd paid a little more attention and taken notes. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 9:19 AM:

" They wanted the big trucks and SUV's when the gas prices were good. It's not the auto industries fault that gas went up. Yes, it is their fault they didn't have something else to fall back on, but look at the employees of other countries....as daddy55 said, they have NOTHING as far as benefits. Who would you rather work for? "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 9:18 AM:

" Yes, it does matter. Unless you have worked for a company that has either gone Union or is Union, I don't believe you need to be spouting off some of the things that you are. I have two immediate family members that are Union so I can base my opinions on that. My husband works for a local company that was not Union when it was owned by the US, then turned union after a foriegn company bought it. I'm here to tell you I wasn't a strong supporter of it at first, but now I see the improvements that have been made for the workers now that they have it. ODF... they responded to what the American people wanted. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 9:18 AM:

" BTW daddy...I'll shoot my mouth off as I please...always have, always will and this is a COMMENT FORUM. If you don't like it, then don't read it.

The unions ARE the major problem. What's that thing they were trying to pass just recently...the fair work act or something. It actually PREVENTED regular tax payers from working oin certain jobs. It was bullying tactics to force people to join unions before they could work certain jobs. Yeah, real fair for the average taxpaying, nonunion, construction worker, huh? Unions are nothing more than bullies and organized legal crime. "

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naturally wrote on Nov 18, 2008 9:17 AM:

" I get so tired of people bashing the quality of the big 3. I have had GMs mostly and as long as I took good care of it I have only trashed on that had less than 200k miles. It had developed an oil leak that went unchecked, I didn't make that mistake twice. I now own 5 GMs ranging from 1965 to '98 that have almost or more than 200k miles.
I can only hope my next new car will be GM or Ford. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 18, 2008 9:14 AM:

" Look...stupid decisions should have ramifications. Bailing out the auto industry, just like bailing out wall street, etc., means there are no ramifications to their years of bad judgments. They are like the spoiled little kid that never learns right from wrong if their parents always bail them out of trouble. Detroit has made stupid decisions and bad, overpriced products that are contrary to market trends for DECADES. It's time they pay.
mommy - times will be tough for a lot of people, but keeping a failing, nonresponsive company on life support to benefit a few people, at the costs to millions of taxpayers is just a bad idea. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 18, 2008 9:00 AM:

" daddy at 55, I am not sure what you mean by "you had family who worked for the railroad...." I know of no one that ever worked for the railroad in my family. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 18, 2008 8:56 AM:

" The answer to your question, mommyof2, is no. Not that that matters. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 18, 2008 7:37 AM:

" Wearescrewed - Have you ever worked for a company that was not union, then went union? Answer this one question then I'll talk about this more. "

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shinymcshine wrote on Nov 17, 2008 9:00 PM:

" The auto workers that lose their job will be coveted for any new company that starts up.
The UAW needs to take a lesson here, as does the federal government. Their mandates and regulations played a part in the company's demise.
Again, whenever govt sticks their nose in to mix, it usually skrewws things up. "

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shinymcshine wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:57 PM:

" the unions strongarmed companies to agree to high dollar contracts for assembly line, unskilled labor. I don't blame workers for taking it, but at some point, the market forces come into play. If you're not competitive in the market, you'll be forced out.
If one or ALL of the big three go down, someone will step up and build it better and leaner. America will always build cars. Companies come and go. If GM goes under because they failed to be competitive, someone else will take their place...A little wiser and with a better plan.
The free market will correct itself. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:49 PM:

" odf, I have a commit to you,as far as foreign automakers, put yourself in this position, if you went to work for one, and you had a wife, kids, house to pay for, would you work for company who did not pay retirement, health insurance? maybe that's why you say we're in trouble, the Amercian Auto Companies did!if you think i'm wrong just do your homowork before you shoot off your mouth, i can back up what i say "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:26 PM:

" wearscrewed, I don't want to set here and throw stones, ok you had family who worked for the railroad and they got damn good paychecks, only then, what they got then bought just as much as mine do today, think back, I also had friends who worked for the railroad, they neither had collage degress, bad comparison. just drop the collage angle, they choose to go there, not my fault everbody got the same degree and now it's flooded,and imorts aren't any better than cars built here, they aren't selling either. "

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chakkers wrote on Nov 17, 2008 7:35 PM:

" So Kit is for this bailout eh? Guess that answers whether on not he is running for reelection in 2010. He must be concerned about the St. Louis vote. "

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nospinzone wrote on Nov 17, 2008 6:07 PM:

" to outsourcing jobs to foreign countries and closiing plants , so now, people have'nt any car plant jobs "

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nospinzone wrote on Nov 17, 2008 6:06 PM:

" ddaddyat55 , not slamming you for getting what you can for the hard work you did , my point is unions kept rasing the ante on your salaries above market value. I had uncles and grandfathers
that worked in shoe factories, and railroads same hours , same work intensity , same crippling disabilities that made one third what you guys did , in the car plants and beer plants , same education level too. Your unions asked for way above and beyond market value of your job comaptivley to other
plant workers, so when the foreign countries offered labor at market value they went over seaso, God bless you for getting what your unions could get, but I'm just saying it also "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:33 PM:

" The fact is, daddy, Toyota builds them better and cheaper. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:30 PM:

" daddy at 55, you can call the bailout a loan if you want but if it is a loan we need to understnad that the changes of it being paid back are very slim. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:28 PM:

" mommyof2, we need to blame the unions because they got greedy. They made it possible to pay people for not working. That is something that cannot be sustained over a long period of time. "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:15 PM:

" but it fed my family, put my daughter though collage, and I'm proud to be a UNION AUTOWORKER "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:13 PM:

" nospinszone before you slam autoworkers for making 70.000 per year, let me tell you. I'm one, the figure you're talking about is 6, 7 days aweek, 8, 9, 10 hours on an assembly line doing the same thing every 40 seconds. If you have a problem with this, why don't you just march to one of these lines and do it for just one week,I did it for 25 years and I am broke down, I'm not complaining "

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nospinzone wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:11 PM:

" You have car dealers offering cars to be sold at 1 per cent soon to be zero per cent and they still can't sell them "

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nospinzone wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:10 PM:

" I'm not slamming workers , I'm saying many workers received way more than their salry and benefits than many people out in the buisness world were
making that had matsers degrees , even in medical field, my point being Unions got there workers so much pay and benefits it forced the auot industry to moce to foreign labor, , in essence they
created part of this mess "

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nospinzone wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:07 PM:

" You can bet all you want on their ability to pay back, but the bottom line is that industry is down and out , poor credit risk right now. How can you say they can pay it back when , cars are not selling. And the shots are not all being called over here anymore people in Japan call some of the shots now too daddy "

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nospinzone wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:05 PM:

" daddy at 55 , a loan to auto industry? r u kidding me ? that has as much chance of being paid off as the national debt?
Would you give a loan to people that can not pay it off, if you were a banker, be serious . No more loans , to poor credit risks , did'nt we do enough damage to our housing industry by doing this last 20 years ? "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:02 PM:

" Yes I know, I worked at Chrysler for 25 years, Fenton plant, building Mini-vans.Don't slam workers or quality, we did as told, our cars are just as good any other, yes you are going to get a lemon once in awhile no matter what kind you buy. But yes, loan them the money and, betya, they pay it back Been there, And help millions of workers. Millions. "

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nospinzone wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:02 PM:

" Not just Bond, get rid of Skelton too , does he do anything but lobby for the military ? And what is Mcaskill doing up there goodness gracious "

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nospinzone wrote on Nov 17, 2008 5:01 PM:

" ODF have to for one time only, agree stop bail outs let the market system choose the best and make the rest get competiitive or die off, thats the law of survival , in the jungle and in the market "

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nospinzone wrote on Nov 17, 2008 4:58 PM:

" mommy2 I know the unions were good and provided for people . The Unions also ran companies out of buuisness because of their demands too, thats why they went to other countries to build cars . Come on high school drop outs making 70,000 gimme a break, can't have it both ways anymore "

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nospinzone wrote on Nov 17, 2008 4:56 PM:

" Definatley not in favor of this. The auto industry constantly self inflicts wounds on itself. They overproduce, they sub contract out to foreign countries , higher too many people , pay employees twice as much as college degreed people
because of the unions, bailout is a bandaid that does not help solve what causes their wounds. These car plants shut down even in good times . How many times has the Chrysler plant in St louis shut down now? 3 or 4 The economy may have hurt them but they do more to themselves than the economy does "

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daddy at 55 wrote on Nov 17, 2008 4:41 PM:

" as far as the auto bailout, I say yes, because this is not a bailout but a loan to be paid back, Freddy Mac, Aig and the other finance companys, that was man made also, don't point fingers at the auot industry, that market was demand driven, that's what the Amrecian peopl,wanted, when gas for 4$ a gallon,yes they should have had high mileage cars to fall back on,who was to blame there?You can't tell me the we can't make higher milage cars, but someone just won't let us, WHO?Same old thing, we can't make them here but they can be shipped into this country, sound familar??I do agree the top exs don't need those big paychecks, or bonuses, they would feed alot of familys,. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 17, 2008 3:24 PM:

" men and women on the assembly line who are paying now. So before you start bashing the Union maybe you should use your mouth to ask someone who just lost their job!!! My dad was lucky... thousands of others, including a close family friend, aren't that lucky. "

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mommyof2 wrote on Nov 17, 2008 3:23 PM:

" For those of you who don't give a hoot about the American auto industry must not have a family member who has recently lost their job because of it. My father had worked for Chrysler in St. Louis (the minivan plant) for 25 years and that job AND the Union is what put food on our table when I was growing up. He was lucky enough to have enough years in and be old enough that he could take a retirement package, but that is nothing compared to what his income would be if he were working. Yes, the three biggies of the US have shot themselves in the foot with pushing the wrong type of vehicle, but it's the "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 17, 2008 2:12 PM:

" Yes, ODF, a lot of people will be effected by Ford or GM bankruptcy. But it appears that they will fail anyway. Why should we drag the taxpayer down with them? "

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ODF wrote on Nov 17, 2008 1:39 PM:

" The ramifications of letting Detroit sink scare the crapola out of me. I'd be willing to bet that everyone will either have a family member or friend that would be affected by the demise of Detroit...other directly or indirectly. However, as the financial bailout fiasco has shown us...we cannot rely on Wall Street or Congress to make rational and reasonable decisions AND honor the commitments/promises. It's time to let the free market system work...stop the bailouts. And while we're at it, start limiting the handouts...domestic and foreign. It's time the US took care of America FIRST. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 17, 2008 1:09 PM:

" The fact is if we do this bailout thing it will only extend the period of time before those companies fail anyway. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 17, 2008 1:08 PM:

" Mac, there is a reason it costs more to make Ford or GM autos than it does to make a Toyota. And that cost is directly linked to union benefits. Bankrutptcy is the answer and then maybe Ford and GM can get out of those insane contracts. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 17, 2008 1:06 PM:

" Mac, I agree it is time to let Detroit go. But the problems of Detroit were caused by socialist ideas that you want to impose on everyone. Detroit is a prime example of a left wing failure. "

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wearescrewed wrote on Nov 17, 2008 1:04 PM:

" Bond needs to go. Bailing out Detroit is an idiotic thing to do. Please resign Bond. "

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ODF wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:05 AM:

" US automakers have been out of touch for so long, is it any wonder they are on the verge of collapse. While the focus of many foreign companies have been on better fuel efficiency, alternative fuels, etc., US auto makers have continued pumping out 3/4 ton pickups, Suburbans, Escalades, Hummers, etc.. How many times has Chyrsler been in the tank, yet they didn't learn. "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 16, 2008 6:35 PM:

" If shareholders were able to get 30-40% return on their investment, Big 3 stock would be trading a bit higher than $1.50 a share. I'd buy a bunch of GM, Ford, and Chrylser stock if I could get 30-40% growth on my money.

Toyota doesn't even do 10% with all their top-selling products. "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 16, 2008 6:33 PM:

" If the Big 3 automakers were getting a return of 30-40 percent, I doubt that they would be in trouble.

So why are the foreign automakers able to thrive by building their cars in US plants using US workers? Why can they changeover to newer design models much quicker? Why is their quality so much higher?

Why did Chrysler shut down the Fenton minivan plant instead of the Windsor plant?

I'm not bashing here- just noticing that some plants do very well in the US, but the Big 3 plants cannot compete. What gives? "

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justaword wrote on Nov 16, 2008 6:08 PM:

" Also for inferior products I ask anyone that has worked in the manufacturing world to back me up. Companies will buy cheaper and cheaper products just to make a bigger profit. Corporations and the share holders they answer to are to blame. Profit should be a part of business but there is a bigger picture. Making a good product, employ people, buliding a good relationship with customers and make the community and country a better place. "

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justaword wrote on Nov 16, 2008 3:05 PM:

" Don't just blame the unions. The cost of an new truck to make is in the mid teens and to purchase same said truck will cost you up close to 30,000 plus dollars. That is what is wrong with american or other companies. If they can't get 30,40 percent return on our dollars its not worth there time. "

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Boscoe wrote on Nov 15, 2008 7:34 PM:

" Funny how the Big 3 are closing plants and laying off workers, but the foreign automakers are building new plants all over the country for several years now.

I agree that the Big 3 would be in better shape if they built cars with the design, comfort, performance, quality, and price that consumers want.

The unions cripple the Big 3 with their overbloated wages and their refusal to allow flexibility for manufacturing reconfiguration, etc.

I hope the UAW workers are happy for all that their union bosses have done for them. Losing their job forever doesn't seem like much of a benefit. "

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Mac1974 wrote on Nov 15, 2008 7:04 PM:

" You can spend a bit more than that for a Honda, Nissan or Toyota pickup and it will run past 250K.

America had it's chance at building cars that would compete with foreign autos. They failed miserably!

It's time to let them go. "

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Mac1974 wrote on Nov 15, 2008 7:02 PM:

" American car companies should not be bailed out. I'm not declaring this because I'm your run-of-the-mill, conservative, ideologue with no understanding of the global economy (this description includes about 90% of the midwestern population)

I do in fact support the bailout because economy experts (not FAUX News entertainment show hosts like Bill O, and Sean H.) have said it is necessary and these experts have track records that prove they know what they're talking about. I don't support this bailout because American automobiles are trash. How can they charge 30 K for a Ford pickup that's going to break down at 50K miles? "

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Mac1974 wrote on Nov 15, 2008 6:54 PM:

" ~~~~~~The unions have far outlived their usefulness by forcing inferior products at inflated prices down the American people's throats. I for one will be glad to see the auto world lean up a little.~~~~~

Oh, here we go..... shiny's going to blame car prices on unions. Shiny, American's buy trashy, undependable, useless American vehicles because they are DUMB enough to buy into the marketing, period! I have a friend who bashed Dodge Neons (they are in fact junk) and then went out and bought a PT Cruiser. lol It's the same vehicle with a different body! American's who still buy into the "buy American" thing do it because they are unintelligent.

American products by and large are-trash-and-it-has-ZERO-to-do-with-unions. "

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shinymcshine wrote on Nov 15, 2008 5:17 PM:

" I've always thought highly of Bond, BUT if he votes to bail out the auto industry, I will vote loud and clear to remove him on the next election cycle.
Build good cars at affordable prices and they will sell. The unions have far outlived their usefulness by forcing inferior products at inflated prices down the American people's throats. I for one will be glad to see the auto world lean up a little. "

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geofra wrote on Nov 15, 2008 10:18 AM:

" If you want to be a true believer than you've got to take the bad with the good. The Missouri auto plants make a product that is currently out of favor. Either the auto companies need to retool them to make them more profitable or close them if they're costing their parent companies money. And if the parents can't survive, well, isn't that the way of capitalism? Small business knows this. Maybe it's time to treat big business like small business. Is the statement "too big to fail" true? "

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