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Tipton alderman upset over handling of drug cases

By Ra'Vae Edwards
redwards@newstribune.com
Published: Tuesday, May 6, 2008 3:25 PM CDT
TIPTON, Mo. - Allegations made by Tipton Alderman Joe Lutz after a council meeting in April resulted in a heated discussion Monday at City Hall.

Lutz last month made public allegations that Moniteau County Prosecutor John Kay, along with others in the judicial system, apparently were not doing their job because, Lutz said, “countless” drug arrests were being reported in local newspapers, but names of those arrested are not included.

He said he does not see any convictions listed in the court news published by the local newspapers each week.

Associate Circuit Judge Peggy Richardson told Lutz and the more than 40 citizens attending the meeting that she was unaware of the cases to which Lutz was referring.

“Are there drugs in the city of Tipton? Of course. I am not naive enough to think there are not drugs in this town, but do I think there is a serious problem? No,” Richardson said. “If Mr. Lutz would like to share with us these people he says have been arrested ‘countless' times, I will be the first to be educated and quite frankly surprised because I am not aware of anyone who has been arrested ‘countless' times - and that is the quote that was in the paper - and nothing has been done.”

Richardson said she believes law enforcement officers are working hard to curb the drug problems throughout the county.


“I think we are doing all we can to combat the drug and alcohol problem we have in town,” said Richardson, who also serves as the municipal judge for Tipton's city court.

Kay also said he was unsure which cases Lutz was speaking about when he made his comments.

“It came to me as a shock that Mr. Lutz was saying he was reading that ‘countless' people are being arrested time after time and not being prosecuted in this county,” Kay said.

“These allegations were made directly against me - that I am not doing my job. I want you to come up with the facts. In the business I am in, I deal with the facts.”

Lutz said he has read about numerous drug arrests in Tipton but because names are not released, he, along with the citizens of Tipton, have the perception that nothing is being done to the suspects who are manufacturing, distributing and importing drugs, mainly methamphetamine.

“We see them arrested and you hear about it, yet no names are ever released,” Lutz reiterated.

Kay explained his office and the court don't issue news releases, so he could not speak about that. However, he explained, an arrest does not automatically lead to the filing of charges.

When a controlled substance is seized, Kay explained, it is delivered to the Highway Patrol lab in Jefferson City to be analyzed to determine its exact nature.

“We cannot, just because we see white powder in a bag, automatically go out and file charges,” Kay said. “It would be irresponsible for us to do that.

“In many cases, when things have to go to the lab, we take no further action until we get that report back. That could take anywhere from two to nine months. We do not bring a charge until we have that report.”

Kay also explained that people who are charged with a crime have the right to a speedy trial. Once that person makes a formal request, the prosecution has 180 days to get the case to trial. If the lab report is not back within that 180 days, the charges will not stand.

Kay said it would be helpful if there were more labs available to perform tests on the substances that are seized.

“It is the Legislature ultimately that controls the funding for these labs,” Kay said. “If they don't appropriate enough money to have personnel there to do it, we just have to wait our turn.

“There are private labs, but these private labs charge a great deal of money to have someone go to court to testify and we simply don't have the funds to do that.”



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Thanks.

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 4:33 PM:

" Right. And like I care what someone thinks at my age. I started to tell them that I was older and had more insurance but thought better of it. You have a good one too. "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 3:28 PM:

" boxer - We all have our demons...yours is INMO and apparently mine is ohmy. LOL!!! I'm just glad I don't take these forums seriously like some folks appear to. Last time I checked, they were for giving your opinion/comments and not determining what fits neatly in the lines of "right" and "wrong". Have a good one boxer! "

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 2:11 PM:

" And before Ms. INMO comes into tell me I am a know it all, I am gone. Nice chatting with you all. And to law enforcement....keep up the good work. "

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 2:10 PM:

" And I am talking about not ignoring the fact that meth is probably every county in the state of MO. Give me a bust, take care of it. Again, I am so tired of this petty pot thing. Hey, I wouldn't want to go into a chemical laden home where guns might be present either. And if you don't think it still goes on you are sadly mistaken. I do believe they network to get the sudafed, go over state lines, work in packs. The subject shifted to pot, which in my opinion is almost a joke. Get the real offenders and stiffen the laws. "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 2:01 PM:

" My apologies winky...from the looks of it, I mentioned driving first. My bad on that.

"

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 1:54 PM:

" Winky - You stated we weren't talking about cell phones, etc.. You are the one that brought up about a family member being killed by a stoner. I just stated that I don't care HOW or WHAT reason the driver is impaired and used those as examples. My family member is still dead.....so in the big scheme of things how does it really matter if the driver was drunk, stoned, impaired on legal prescription meds, cell phone-itis, or whatever?
The story is about a Tipton councilman mad about drugs...driving was never mentioned, but it didn't stop you from expanding on the article. Now you want to berate us for the same thing. These forums crack me up!! "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 1:50 PM:

" Winky - Did you read my post about tired drivers? My point is ANY impaired driver is dangerous...it doesn't matter if they are chemically impaired or simply careless, nonattentive drivers.
I don't give a flying flip if the driver is a 16 year old street racer, a stoner, a drunk or you tuning your radio....my family member is still dead. Personally, I believe a stoned driver is much safer than a drunk driver...as far as chemical impairments go. "

winky615 wrote on May 12, 2008 1:41 PM:

" We're not talking about old people or speeders or cell phone addicated 16-year olds. We're talking about drugs. If the story was about a Tipton councilman angry about the elderly or cell phone users, then the topic would shift to that.

Your posts appear to make light of marijuana-impaired driving (i.e. "I would rather see a person driving under the influence of a little pot than alcohol any day.").

My point is a chemically impaired driver is a dangerous driver, regardless of the impairing substance. "

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 1:35 PM:

" I probably burnt my lungs out more by smelling my neighbors bubbling meth than I ever did by smoking pot in my youth (to get back on subject here). "

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 1:32 PM:

" The prioritizing upsets me too. I have done pot in my youth. BIG DEAL. I don't do drugs now, I don't smoke or drink. Like I said, I thought the dog was a good idea at first. I thought it might scare some kids into thinking twice about having it in their possession. Now I think its just going to be a big old PR thing. BIG DEAL. "

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 1:29 PM:

" ODF Father, ah, ha. Yep, the prescription drug thing with the elderly is a real big problem. So is enabling your elderly parent to drive just because you are too busy to drive them. Real problem. "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 1:28 PM:

" BTW - I used the term "accident" in relation to a crash with the deer because in my opinion that would be one of the rare instances of a crash being a "true" accident. "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 1:27 PM:

" Boxer - If we had no other drug worries in this country and LE wanted to go after pot, that would be one thing. My point is, where are the priorities? There are so many WORSE things out there right now that pot shouldn't even be on our radar screen. I have a couple of friends in LE in St. Louis and they are all for the decriminalization/legalization of pot for personal use. I'm willing to bet a lot of the people that are 100% against it have never been around people that use it...I'd rather be around a stoner than a drunk! "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 1:24 PM:

" Exactly boxer - Some people like to throw out "what if's" in an effort to skew the argument. Really, what difference does it matter HOW a family member is killed in a traffic crash?? (I don't like the term accident, because very few crashes are "accidents".) Should I be mad at Conservation if a family member dies from an accident with a deer? If I have a family member die from a crash I probably won't think much about the other driver...unless it's like the guy from R-ville that should have had his license revoked years ago. "

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 1:23 PM:

" Quite frankly, winky....I don't want my family encountering 16 year old on cell phones for that matter. Or the idiotic speeders that no one seems to want to pick up in my area. Or the little old lady that drives down the wrong way on a major highway (yes my mother did that). "

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 1:21 PM:

" funny ODF, I just now read your post. My mom literally was stoned while driving. Its a big problem with the elderly. They get confused on meds, get hooked, doctor shop, etc. Thank god she was on country roads or she would have killed someone. Again, I am so tired of the blowup about pot. "

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 1:19 PM:

" Thats what I love/hate about these forums, someone just makes something up about how someone feels. I don't want anyone in a wreck with someone else thats impared. Honestly, I didn't want my mother on the road while under the influence of prescription drugs, as she ran off the road twice. Please before you act like some of us are condoning drug use or are users, think twice. Me and my family are about as squeeky clean as they get. "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 1:19 PM:

" Winky - how is your family being killed by a driver slowed/impaired by age or over-the-counter medication any less traumatic than one impaired by pot? I'm willing to bet their are more people on the road driving under a legal "impairment" at any given moment than are driving under the impairment of illegal substances. "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 1:06 PM:

" BTW winky ....where did I (or Boxer) ever "excuse" marijuana usage on or off the road? Marijuana usage is FAR less impairing than alcohol, many prescription drugs and some over-the-counter drugs. "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 1:04 PM:

" winky - In a perfect world you wouldn't, but virtually every driver on the road is impaired at one time or another...in one way or another. I consider use of cell phone or eating, reading, age, etc. as "impairments" to a driver's ability to be safe. Let's not forget lack of common sense like in street racing, etc. Studies are showing that tired driver's are just as dangerous as intoxicated drivers. Impaired drivers ARE on the road...if I have to encounter one, I'd prefer it'd be the stoned driver going 15 mph UNDER the speed limit, looking for something to eat! LOL! "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 1:01 PM:

" LOL!! You had it right the first time...father...although I've been called a mother _____ before!! (Just ask ohmy!! LOL) I've dealt with my dad coming off extended, prescribed use of pain killers when he was taking them as directed and was having hallucinations. There's a whole lot scarier things out there than pot. "

winky615 wrote on May 12, 2008 12:34 PM:

" ODF/BOXER: I can't speak for you, but I don't want my family to encounter ANY impaired driver.

I suspect you wouldn't be so excusing of the "typical" marijuana-impaired driver when their slowed reactions result in a fatality crash involving your family.

"

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 11:39 AM:

" Or good mother? Its hard to tell in here if people are males or females. "

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 11:36 AM:

" ODF - whoops, sorry, your son. I put daughter. Anyway, sounds like you are a good dad. And yes, I would rather see a person driving under the influence of a little pot over a drunk driver any day. I come from a generation of heavy drugs. I didn't use them but was so aware of what they were and how they affected people. Right down to seeing a friend crawling on the floor after using mescaline (SP?). So this pot thing just kind of throws me off here. I just think in a world of crack cocaine and meth that they needed to rethink their focus instead of busting kids in parking lots. "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 10:54 AM:

" I'd rather deal with a stoned driver over a drunk driver any day!
I did a paper in college about the effects of pot vs. the effects of alcohol & tobacco. Pot is far less dangerous than either of the other 2. In fact, in many areas police unions are actually in support of decriminalizing (or even outright legalization) or marijuana in small amounts for personal use. A truly unbiased view at the FACTS of each was sure an eye-opening experience. "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 10:50 AM:

" Boxer - I'm not sure they are teaching that all drugs are in the same category or if they are simply choosing to not differentiate. My son specifically asked/commented about alcohol being a drug and it's illegal. That's how the whole conversation came up. I understand it being tough to teach younger kids about drugs and trying to describe the difference, but it seems they ended up causing more confusion than anything. So I got to spend some time trying to get him to understand good/useful/legal drugs vs. bad/dangerious/illegal drugs. "

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 9:51 AM:

" That and room search when she is older go a long, long way (ha!). You just can't rely on the school or their drug programs to work. "

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 9:50 AM:

" Thats just creepy (Leslie Gregory). I am not sure any of these drug programs are working. Not to be putting anyone down but my son went through the DARE program, as did some of his classmates, one of whom was busted recently. I can't believe they are teaching that all drugs are in the same category now. Very odd. I don't know, I guess I am just from a different generation but give me a pot smoking person over someone whacked out on pain killers and lorazipam anyday. The best you can do is what you are doing and keep an open communication line with your daughter. "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 9:43 AM:

" boxer - Speaking of messed up society....anymore it seems to begin in our schools. My 9 year old comes home telling me how alcohol is a "drug", etc.. Kids are being taught that ALL DRUGS are bad and illegal. So I have to try to explain about aspirin, antibiotics that his doctor prescribed for him to take, etc.. It's one thing to educate kids, but to just say "all drugs are bad" is a stupid way to get the anti-drug message across. "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 9:38 AM:

" Oh yeah, speaking of messed up priorities...we also have mothers getting drunk/stoned, taking illegal prescription drugs, killing their baby and getting PROBATION!! "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 9:37 AM:

" Boxer - Leslie was found underneath some roofing tin on the property of the grandmother to the prime suspect....it was on a farm around McGirk.

I think our priorities are all messed up....or....we just don't have priorities. Maybe we're just trying to do everything and not setting priorities. They busted a kid for misdemeanor amount of pot....good for them...but what about the DANGEROUS drugs, meth labs, murder/violence related to drug trade, the sellers, etc.? "

boxergal wrote on May 12, 2008 9:13 AM:

" Do we live in a messed up society around here or what? There are kids getting busted for pot, being sent to prison and meth heads out there killing people to shut them up. Very strange. I am assuming that they found Leslie Gregory's body???? "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 8:01 AM:

" Joy - "Knowing" who killed her and being able to prove it in court are 2 different things. If they can't make their case, then the suspect is acquitted and can never be charged again. I find it hard to believe wtih the amount of reward though that somebody didn't come forward with some credible info. "

ODF wrote on May 12, 2008 7:59 AM:

" There were a couple of people arrested in Hickory Hills subdivision for meth sales. One was the son of a prominent lawyer and the other his girlfriend/live-in. I never heard what, if anything, ever came out of the arrest/charges. I have a friend that got busted for sales, his girlfriend/live-in was in law enforcement and she knew nothing about his activities until MUSTANG showed up asking to search. No charges were ever filed because he snitched on others. Just because no charges are filed on some folks does not mean LE is not doing their job. I wonder if someone close to Lutz got caught and didn't get preferential treatment and that's why he's miffed. "

joytotheworld wrote on May 9, 2008 5:36 PM:

" ODF, I have family in law enforcment there as well. Methiteau County Sheriff dept. to be exact. They say the same thing, it won't do any good.They already know about these people. They know who killed Leslie and they won't do anything, you think they are too worried about meth-heads? Nah, they aren't. Those type of people don't have MONEY to pay lawyers, fines and such, so Methiteau County doesn't want those people , they can't make money off of them. If you have a job and get pulled over after a few beer's though, your done for. "

winky615 wrote on May 9, 2008 3:59 PM:

" I can't speak to the accuracy of Lutz's comments: Moniteau County officials may be inept. I don't know.

I simply don't believe anyone can come to that conclusion because names of arrested persons aren't released prior to formal charging.

"

ODF wrote on May 9, 2008 3:33 PM:

" I love this comment: We see them arrested and you hear about it, yet no names are ever released, Lutz reiterated.
I wonder how many he has actually SEEN arrested. Hearing about it, in a small town, is often as reliable as finding it on the internet. Small town gossip about people is usually slanted, misleading and often outright WRONG!
"

ODF wrote on May 9, 2008 3:30 PM:

" winky - I agree...I am not aware of any newspaper, etc. that publishes names of arrestees. My understanding...only when formal charges are filed does it become public record and then the newspaper will include names. You often see "names have not been published pending formal charges" or some such disclaimer. I don't know if there's any law or such prohibiting the release of names or if they are just CYA. "

winky615 wrote on May 9, 2008 3:01 PM:

" The only thing I can infer from the article is that Lutz believes the agents of the govt (LE/PA) aren't doing their job b/c names aren't published with arrest information. I feel this is a misbelief.

In my county they do print names of arrestees. Some counties don't. That, in an of itself, doesn't indicate the level of work being done. "

ODF wrote on May 9, 2008 8:09 AM:

" scooby - The funny thing about small towns is the rumors. I'd bet a lot of the people on here talking about what they "know" are repeating nothing more than rumor. I cannot count the number of rumors (FALSE rumors) that have been spread around California about me as "fact". All spread by people that did not KNOW me, but "knew about me" through "friends". If I did 1/2 of what I've been accused/rumored of, I'd be be dead! :)
If you people claim to know all this for fact, why are you espousing your "knowledge" on a newspaper blog rather than reporting it to the authorities? "

ODF wrote on May 9, 2008 7:56 AM:

" joy - I've lived there since 1st grade as well and also know both of them personally. Please feel free to report all of the makers, users and murderer's names to the crime tip hotline or the sheriff's office, since you seem to be "in the know" about all the criminal activity. Better yet, why don't you get into law enforcement, since you know all the criminal element. (rolling my eyes) "

Average Joe wrote on May 8, 2008 10:56 PM:

" Someone's got to defend these individuals. What would defense lawyers (and all the personal injury lawyers) do if it weren't for the drug problem.

Speaking of personal injury lawyers, it seems to me the only people wanting the drug problem to go away are the insurance people. First, they don't want to pay the million dollar settlement for pain and suffering, then they have the nerve to pass their losses onto the consumer by charging higher premiums. They're nothing but blood thirsty parasites if you ask me. "

blahblahblah wrote on May 8, 2008 10:54 PM:

" You know I 'm not talking to you. I just need the critical people who got their messages removed to give me some specifics.

Don't let the name fool you, it's all I could think of after reading some of this stuff.

"

Average Joe wrote on May 8, 2008 10:41 PM:

" Yo Castigliano... Not only does LE "not" want the drug problem to go away, but the health care industry needs it as well. I'm an RN. If it wasn't for drugs and alcohol, I would be out of a job. Idiots wrecking cars and killing each other is job security baby. Don't forget all the social workers who would be unemployed if they didn't have children from broken families to place in foster care. And what about all the state workers who administer welfare programs? If all the druggies were out working, who would be left to collect welfare? Of course we can't leave out defense lawyers... "

joytotheworld wrote on May 8, 2008 8:23 PM:

" I don't comment to people with names like "blahblahblah". Sorry. "

blahblahblah wrote on May 8, 2008 4:56 PM:

" Come on this is my first post and I can't get a reply. Those of you that were jawing earlier about the sheriff race, if you actully have anything that might help an undecided voter please share. I would love to hear what makes Mr. Windsor, MR. OBVIOUS!

"

online_editor wrote on May 8, 2008 1:54 PM:

" If your comment in this thread was one of the ones which I removed to the postponed queue, check my message in the e-mail box you registered with. Thanks. --Rick Brown, online editor, News Tribune "

blahblahblah wrote on May 8, 2008 11:31 AM:

" Hello! Kind of got quiet all the sudden. Just looking for a little info on the obvious choice.

"

blahblahblah wrote on May 8, 2008 10:16 AM:

" Can you give me a little insight as to why Mr. Windsor is the obvious choice? "

boxergal wrote on May 8, 2008 7:09 AM:

" should have been "has seen", sorry. "

boxergal wrote on May 8, 2008 7:09 AM:

" Amen. Did no one see the gentleman on tv that moved from a crime ridden city in PA to California MO only to say that he seen worse drug problems there? Its everywhere and until people face the facts that their perfect little county towns have a problem, then nothing will get resolved. My county has it too, but I am not foolish enough to believe it does not go on. "

joytotheworld wrote on May 7, 2008 6:06 PM:

" ODF wrote: To all you experts who "used" to live there or probably don't now or ever did..

Since first grade.

ODF said: But I love how you experts seem to think you know more than the prosecutor and judge.

I KNOW them both personally. "

Castigliano wrote on May 7, 2008 4:23 PM:

" The drug "problem" is big business for law enforcement and they do not want it to go away. Think of how much money is generated by the "drug war", nothing else compares to it as far as the money game goes.

How many good parents (and grandparents) have lost everything they own, trying to keep their bad child out of jail? Time and time again they are bonded out and go back to jail over and over repeatedly.

That is a large part of why the drug problem is as big as it is. There is just so much money involved, law enforcement bankrupt without it. "

scoobydob wrote on May 7, 2008 4:10 PM:

" BNJC22 Then if you have first hand knowledge of the meth and that all or certain cops know about it and where it is then provide the evidence to the feds, or are they in on it too? If not then these are just wild unfounded accusations based on nothing more than rumors! They can't prosecute on rumors! "

BNJC22 wrote on May 7, 2008 11:53 AM:

" Lived in California from 1985 to October 2007. I do have an idea of what I'm talking about. My family still lives there and I'm very active in the California community. "

ODF wrote on May 7, 2008 9:12 AM:

" I remember Joe from high school, as I was one of those Calfornia people that hung around Tipton a lot. From past experiences...Joe doesn't always know as much as he wants you to think he does. I think right now it's more about wanting to get his name in the headlines. I respect the opinion of Judge Richardson more than I would a disgruntled Tipton city employee. "

scoobydob wrote on May 7, 2008 9:09 AM:

" Other than ODF and myself do you people actually live in Moniteau county. I doubt it. Because you don't know what you're talking about. As far as joe lutz, do you think he's no longer a couty commissioner, he says a lot of nonsense and thinks he's a big shot but he was dumped for being inept, maybe he should put that in his stinky pipe and smoke it. "

ODF wrote on May 7, 2008 9:02 AM:

" Thank you blue! There are several people "known" to law enforcement. But until there is sufficient information for a search warrant or probably cause is made another way (traffic stop, etc.), LE's hands are tied.
I think Lutz is off the mark a little though because I am not aware or have heard of a people being arrested countless times and not facing charges. I am aware of one or two people that were arrested (one for distribution) but never faced charges because they revealed names of sources so LEO caught the "bigger fish"...but that never made headlines to my knowledge. "

ODF wrote on May 7, 2008 8:58 AM:

" Moniteau, Cooper, Morgan, Pettis...pretty much any rural county, or every county for that matter, had a bad meth problem prior to revision of the law. MO wasn't known as the meth capital for no reason.

Joy - There's a lot of people that have questions about Leslie's murder. I have a friend in LE in Moniteau County and from what he's said, they know who committed the murder...unfortunately they have not been able to find any evidence or witnesses to make the case in court. There's an unsolved disappearance of a lady (probably drug-related) from Russellville also, so it's not just Moniteau County. "

blueknight wrote on May 7, 2008 8:54 AM:

" If you recall, there have been articles published in the Tribune about the budget cuts to the drug task force that operates in Moniteau County. That, plus the fact that small towns like Tipton can only afford to have a single officer on the street at any given time demonstrates a lack of resources for extended drug investigations. "Knowing" someone is dealing drugs and being able to "prove" it in court are two entirely different things. Things dont work as easily in the real world as they on shows like "CSI" or "Law & Order." "

ODF wrote on May 7, 2008 8:43 AM:

" To all you experts who "used" to live there or probably don't now or ever did...I live there now and have for many years. There used to be a meth problem in the city, before the new OTC drug laws came into effect. Now, the problem is WAY down from what it used to be. Is there still meth in the city/county...I'm sure...is it a "BAD" problem. Not by any means. But I love how you experts seem to think you know more than the prosecutor and judge.
Shiny - For the most part, names are never released to/published by media until charges are filed. An arrest is usually reported w/o names attached. "

BNJC22 wrote on May 7, 2008 8:10 AM:

" Moniteau county is full of Meth and the cops know exactly who does it and who is involved in it. That's how a small town works, when I grew up there, my parents knew about stuff before I even did it. The cops justification for not arresting a charging these people with crimes is "the are informants", but here's the thing guys: they actually need to tell you something to make them an informant! "

shinymcshine wrote on May 6, 2008 10:30 PM:

" Moniteau has more than its share of meth. If I'm not mistaken, the Sunshine Law covers this issue. For 30 days after the arrest, the NAME, charge, location, if public record. Statements about the facts of the case can't be released.
Not sure why Kay thinks its super secret. "

joytotheworld wrote on May 6, 2008 6:39 PM:

" John is not telling the truth. His mouth was moving.

There is a BAD meth problem in Tipton as well as California.It used to be a nice place to live, but now Methiteau County is a drug haven, with makers, users and murderer's running around free. Please tell me how Leslie Gregory's murder is STILL unsolved when one of the local meth-heads had the body and car on his Granparent's land, where HE just happened to live, and he was the LAST KNOWN person to see her alive? C'mon... "


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